3 man vs 4 man front

[clob94]

I posted this on the game thread for those that don't fully understand the intricacies of the two-- and I've gone into a little bit of detail but will happily expound on it if needed. I just think it's important for guys to understand how a 3 man front can and can't work in college.

Ok....


I can't draw out a diagram of Xs and Os on this thread so you'll have to use the chalkboard in your brain.

When you have 4 down lineman, there's 5 guys that can block them up front. That means 1 on 1 with 1 olineman free.

Now, if you've got a monster at nose (Casey Hampton, Vince Wolfork etc) then your center AND guard HAVE to double him. That leaves 2 tackles and a guard. The guard takes your DT, and the tackles have your 2 DEs.

So you have 3-- 1 on 1 match ups AT the line of scrimmage. 3 chances to get 1 winning match up. 3 guys have a shot to getting to the QB. You just need 1 to get free.

If you rush 3-- it's 3 on 5.
You can double the best 2 and still have a free lineman to block the 3rd. If you bring a LB on a blitz, he's coming in NOT from the LOS-- nope, he's 3-4 yards away when he blitzes. That plenty of time for one OLineman to come off his double team and pick up the LB. And your 3 Dlineman have already been slowed down just enough that when that LB comes, the OL guy leaving his double team simply needs to get a piece of that LBer to give the QB that half second he needs to get the pass off.

Realize, from the moment the ball is snapped you've got 3.5 seconds to get to the QB. That's it.
The farther you are from the QB when the ball is snapped (LBer) the longer it takes to cover that distance-- AND the more warning the blocking OL has. A blitz has to be timed PERFECTLY to work.

So lets say you cheat the blitzing LB up--- OL is going to see that, alert each other with calls, the QB is going to hear that and adjust the play call. Now you're blitz is fvcked before it ever starts.
Let's say you bring two LBers up to the line to blitz with a 3 man D front--
OL checks down to a "max protect" front and goes "cheek to cheek" and the QB gets the snap and IMMEDIATELY throws to his "bail out" receiver (it's called "hitting the hot route") which is usually just a quick slant for 2-3 yards.

Now if you gave me Vince Wolfork, JJ Watt and Bruce Smith in their prime, I'll run a 3 man front ALL DAY-- and I'll have you playing your 4th string QB by halftime because I'll be forcing you to double team all 3 of those guys with 5 lineman AND your TE. At that point, you're fvcked. One less receiver running a route (TE) which means I've got a FREE LB that I can blitz from where ever the fvck I want and you'll never be able to stop me.

But we don't HAVE 3 guys like that.

 

[dj701919]

Is this debate about the 3-4 vs the 4-3 in general, or based on our current roster?

 

[oldhorn2]

I dont think JJ Watt and Casey Hampton are on our current roster....

 

[Hoookem722]

Is this debate about the 3-4 vs the 4-3 in general, or based on our current roster?

That’s also another thing. Teams nowadays are playing nickel 70%+ of the time. So the 3-4 and 4-3 are all but a thing of the past.

 

[dj701919]

I'm confused because the scenarios 8n the original post describe this alignment.

https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc1NDU3ODQ3MjA5ODk1NDky/3-4-vs-4-3-defense-football.png

But the 3-4 defense looks like all of this:

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Wq2j7EtY3SE/mqdefault.jpg

And more.

 

[clob94]

Walking the two outside backers up are simply done to make the OL confused. But you also can expose yourself when you do that.

The old Chicago 52 D (5 lineman 2 backers) was built to stuff the run.

Now, having a 3-4 means you've got speed at LB. Problem is, we don't.

You want to see a modern college team that had a 3-4 that could do anything they wanted?
That 2001-2002 Miami D is the perfect example.

We run a hybrid 3-4 that is designed to defend the pass and let LBs stop the run. But you have to have speed in spades to do this. You gotta have a bunch of 4.5 40yd dash guys at all 4 positions.

 

[dj701919]

Walking the two outside backers up are simply done to make the OL confused. But you also can expose yourself when you do that.

The old Chicago 52 D (5 lineman 2 backers) was built to stuff the run.

Now, having a 3-4 means you've got speed at LB. Problem is, we don't.

You want to see a modern college team that had a 3-4 that could do anything they wanted?
That 2001-2002 Miami D is the perfect example.

We run a hybrid 3-4 that is designed to defend the pass and let LBs stop the run. But you have to have speed in spades to do this. You gotta have a bunch of 4.5 40yd dash guys at all 4 positions.

So this isn't a discussion about the merits of the 3-4 defense, it's a discussion about what defense best fits our personnel.

 

[dj701919]

If that's the case, we need to run a 4-2-5, because we don't have 3 LBs that can run well enough to be in a base defense.

 

[Hoookem722]

If that's the case, we need to run a 4-2-5, because we don't have 3 LBs that can run well enough to be in a base defense.

That’s basically what we are running anyways so that’s why I’m confused on the people saying we are running 3 man fronts. I have seen a few 3 man fronts on long yardage situations but it’s very rare.

It’s essentially a 2-4-5 but there’s not a lot of difference from the 2-4-5 to the 4-2-5.

 

[weevilcatch]

We rarely play with more than 2 LBs.

When we go 4 man front it isn’t the 2nd or 3rd LB. It is the “jack” which is usually Oghoufo.

I would say 90% of snaps we play what used to be called the nickel.
this 3 man front vs. 4 man front debate is silly. We don’t play a 3-4 or even a 3-3-5.

 

[Hoookem722]

We rarely play with more than 2 LBs.

When we go 4 man front it isn’t the 2nd or 3rd LB. It is the “jack” which is usually Oghoufo.

I would say 90% of snaps we play what used to be called the nickel.
this 3 man front vs. 4 man front debate is silly. We don’t play a 3-4 or even a 3-3-5.

3-4 and 4-3 are obsolete in todays football. Teams base defense is nickel.

 

[weevilcatch]

On top of my above post, last year the gripe was stopping the run with 3 DL. Well, that’s not the issue. Now it’s the 50% of the time we have 3 DL we don’t sack the QB 24x a game

The issue is, we don’t have 1st rounders on the DL and playing 6 DL won’t make it better. Damnit

 

[weevilcatch]

3-4 and 4-3 are obsolete in todays football. Teams base defense is nickel.

Including Texas. That’s my point. I don’t know what we’re arguing here tbh

 

[Hoookem722]

Including Texas. That’s my point. I don’t know what we’re arguing here tbh

That makes 2 of us then lol.

 

[clob94]

So this isn't a discussion about the merits of the 3-4 defense, it's a discussion about what defense best fits our personnel.

Hans...... buby.... this thread can be about whatever you want.

 

[dj701919]

We rarely play with more than 2 LBs.

When we go 4 man front it isn’t the 2nd or 3rd LB. It is the “jack” which is usually Oghoufo.

I would say 90% of snaps we play what used to be called the nickel.
this 3 man front vs. 4 man front debate is silly. We don’t play a 3-4 or even a 3-3-5.

I was just trying to get clarification on what the debate actually was. I agree about the 3-4 vs 4-3 being silly, but there is a difference between we don't have the talent to run a 3-4 & you should always have 4 down because it's just better.

 

[speedstrength]

3-4 you base out of a 5-0-5 DL with their hand on the ground Wide 9 OLB in a 2 point Stance. 4 guys on the LOS. In a 4-3 you base out of a 7 - 3 - 3 - 5 DE with his hand on the Ground. 4 guys on the LOS. You cant run any of those in modern college football. You will typically have a 7 Tech DE, 1 Tech NT, 5 Tech DT and some type of hybrid DE/LB "Edge" guy. We don't have one of those guys.

The issue is what is going on behind the front. You have to have at least 5 guys that can cover so 3-3-5 and 4-2-5 start to look the same.

 

[weevilcatch]

Hans...... buby.... this thread can be about whatever you want.

Does this make you our white knight??? 😂😂

 

[dj701919]

3-4 you base out of a 5-0-5 DL with their hand on the ground Wide 9 OLB in a 2 point Stance. 4 guys on the LOS. In a 4-3 you base out of a 7 - 3 - 3 - 5 DE with his hand on the Ground. 4 guys on the LOS. You cant run any of those in modern college football. You will typically have a 7 Tech DE, 1 Tech NT, 5 Tech DT and some type of hybrid DE/LB "Edge" guy. We don't have one of those guys.

The issue is what is going on behind the front. You have to have at least 5 guys that can cover so 3-3-5 and 4-2-5 start to look the same.

So the key is to find a guy that basically play a combo WLB/SS?

 

[speedstrength]

It use to be a nickel back now the term you hear is slot corner. That guy is occupying a traditional LB space so he has to help on the run and those WR screens to the outside. You can also walk a safety down into the box but you need a guy that can cover grass if you are going single high safety. It's really hard to do with the college hash marks being so wide.

 

[weevilcatch]

It use to be a nickel back now the term you hear is slot corner. That guy is occupying a traditional LB space so he has to help on the run and those WR screens to the outside. You can also walk a safety down into the box but you need a guy that can cover grass if you are going single high safety. It's really hard to do with the college hash marks being so wide.

Guilbeau, Barron, and maybe Thompson have played this role?

i think Cook has played the old SS role.

I might have them mixed up not knowing their exact labels and verbiage.

I do know Cook has been very good so far this year.