OT: What did Dan Patrick do to the teachers?

[oldschoolcat]

So I thought about asking this on social media but I was afraid my house would get firebombed by angry educators. So I figured I could ask it here anonymously. So here goes...

What did Dan Patrick do to the teachers? I see threads on the Facebook and other places and it is pitchforks and torches. They won't even speak his name and are supporting any candidate they can find to run against him.

I THINK it's about pensions, but I am afraid to ask my teacher people. Anyone have any insight?

 

[TX1972]

He suggested vouchers. Teachers need to force everyone with less money than the Obamas or the Clintons into public schools. So teachers can keep their jobs.

 

[oldschoolcat]

I see. One of the reasons that I don't discuss this with my teacher friends and family is because they lose their effing minds when it comes to their employment and pensions. I made the mistake talking about the viability of long term pensions for government employees with a Harris County employee relative once. I won't do that again.

My thoughts are if I have to pay for my own retirement out of my pocket, I shouldn't have to pay for yours out of mine also. I don't care what your profession is.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Everyone should be on defined contribution, not defined benefit. The Dallas pd pension was recently bailed out by the Texas tax payers..... just wait, this is a disaster on the horizon and will lead to printing like we have never seen before. Players place your bets! Mine is on 401k' and IRA'so being confiscated and obsorbed into the general pension bailout scheme. All of you prudent savers, no soup for you! This is the reason I pay my taxes and do not have any kind of government privileged retirement scheme. I pay my house off instead... only 50k to go and I'm bullet proof.

 

[TX1972]

I see. One of the reasons that I don't discuss this with my teacher friends and family is because they lose their effing minds when it comes to their employment and pensions. I made the mistake talking about the viability of long term pensions for government employees with a Harris County employee relative once. I won't do that again.

My thoughts are if I have to pay for my own retirement out of my pocket, I shouldn't have to pay for yours out of mine also. I don't care what your profession is.

I went to public schools from 5h grade to medical school. When I went to RGV to practice, we bought a house 5 miles from town. No kids nearby to play with, we started the kids at an episcopal pre school. Eventually joined the church, ex wife was on board. Our school spent $2250./student. Public schools claimed $4500. not enough. We had several parents driving 30 miles to get their kids to our school.

 

[speedstrength]

Teachers don't get social security. We pay into TRS just like most of you pay into social security. If we get that taken away from us we have no social security because we didn't pay into it. Reiterated teachers make a percentage of the average of their last 3 years. It's usually in the range of 35-50 k

 

[clob94]

Basically, Patrick wants parents to be able to choose which school their kids attend. Somewhere around $10,000 annually is spent on a student per their tuition toward their public education. Patrick wants parents to be able to ear mark that money toward a school of the parent's choosing. Private, charter, etc..... he also wants to begin consolidating schools where there are reduced student numbers due to his voucher system. So if 500 kids leave LaMarque and all attend a private school, and 300 kids do the same at Texas city, essentially the state is saying they will simply consolidate the two schools and eliminate redundant teacher jobs.

I have no kids so I don't have a dog in this fight but I can see both sides of it. Public school education isn't what it was decades ago, and even before that, there were always elite private schools.

 

[oldschoolcat]

Teachers don't get social security. We pay into TRS just like most of you pay into social security. If we get that taken away from us we have no social security because we didn't pay into it. Reiterated teachers make a percentage of the average of their last 3 years. It's usually in the range of 35-50 k

So is there a move to "take away" anything? Or is it like other industries where they are actually asking folks to pay in additional funds?

 

[speedstrength]

Public school education isn't what it was decades ago, and even before that, there were always elite private schools.

False. Public schools with less than 20% of students on free or reduced lunch are the best in the world. PISA scores from these schools are higher than all other OECD countries. Yes, better than the hand picked schools in the rich Chinese yes better than the Northern European countries that are considered the gold standard for public education.

How about public schools with 80% of students on free or reduced lunch? Well the only country in the OECD those schools outperform is Mexico. So in Texas its really a mixed bag. If you can afford to live in the right attendence zone your kids are going to get a top notch education with great faculty, AP and dual credit programs and what ever else your kid will need to be successful. If you can only afford to live in a district here 80% of the kids are on free or reduced lunch then its a crap shoot. Teacher turn over is high, there aren't as many upper level programs, and students don't get all of the same opportunities.

One thing that really kills teachers is the ones that work in high poverty schools get compared to those that work in low poverty schools. They constantly are told they are the reason that schools aren't performing and that somehow private or charter schools are the answer. Guess what. When you look at the research and control for SES private schools and charter schools don't preform any better than the public schools. Do you really think if you took the faculty from Lady Bird Johnson High School which is one of San Antonio's best performing public high schools to South San High School that all of a sudden student outcomes would flip flop? Probably not. But no one really wants to address those issues. They just want to blame teachers.

 

[speedstrength]

So is there a move to "take away" anything? Or is it like other industries where they are actually asking folks to pay in additional funds?

No they are talking about fundamentally changing the system that is working. TRS is solvent. It will be solvent for a long time. Most teachers who enter the profession leave after 5 years. So they pay in a little bit and would have to wait until they are in their 70s before they would get a very small check. Its not like other public employee systems.

 

[speedstrength]

I went to public schools from 5h grade to medical school. When I went to RGV to practice, we bought a house 5 miles from town. No kids nearby to play with, we started the kids at an episcopal pre school. Eventually joined the church, ex wife was on board. Our school spent $2250./student. Public schools claimed $4500. not enough. We had several parents driving 30 miles to get their kids to our school.

Did your private school have a transportation department and a special education department?

 

[2300 Nueces]

No they are talking about fundamentally changing the system that is working. TRS is solvent. It will be solvent for a long time. Most teachers who enter the profession leave after 5 years. So they pay in a little bit and would have to wait until they are in their 70s before they would get a very small check. Its not like other public employee systems.

Teachers should have a great retirement system but we need to do away with the defined benefit pension platform. It's not realistic. As it is, aside from teachers, we have a pension problem across the world and it starts with the assumption of 7%-8% returns being the norm for conservative investing.

 

[clob94]

So Westlake, Highland Park, Lake Travis, Alamo Heights, the Woodlands etc are killing it and schools like Judson, Robstown, Weslaco, Carter are not.

I'm not going within fifty feet of that discussion..........

False. Public schools with less than 20% of students on free or reduced lunch are the best in the world. PISA scores from these schools are higher than all other OECD countries. Yes, better than the hand picked schools in the rich Chinese yes better than the Northern European countries that are considered the gold standard for public education.

How about public schools with 80% of students on free or reduced lunch? Well the only country in the OECD those schools outperform is Mexico. So in Texas its really a mixed bag. If you can afford to live in the right attendence zone your kids are going to get a top notch education with great faculty, AP and dual credit programs and what ever else your kid will need to be successful. If you can only afford to live in a district here 80% of the kids are on free or reduced lunch then its a crap shoot. Teacher turn over is high, there aren't as many upper level programs, and students don't get all of the same opportunities.

One thing that really kills teachers is the ones that work in high poverty schools get compared to those that work in low poverty schools. They constantly are told they are the reason that schools aren't performing and that somehow private or charter schools are the answer. Guess what. When you look at the research and control for SES private schools and charter schools don't preform any better than the public schools. Do you really think if you took the faculty from Lady Bird Johnson High School which is one of San Antonio's best performing public high schools to South San High School that all of a sudden student outcomes would flip flop? Probably not. But no one really wants to address those issues. They just want to blame teachers.

 

[TX1972]

Did your private school have a transportation department and a special education department?

No, but the church provided scholarships for needy children. I spent 20 years in school. I raised 3 daughters who went to church school 10 years, then public. My slogan was that I wasn't sure they learned anything at school, but at some point in the day they had to leave the house. So you're saying special ed and buses are half the cost of public schools?

 

[oldhorn2]

Clob....I have heard you say you were the smartest guy in the rooms that dont include McCraven, but I never saw proof of it until now....wise man....

 

[speedstrength]

2012-2015 PISA scores for schools that serve

No, but the church provided scholarships for needy children. I spent 20 years in school. I raised 3 daughters who went to church school 10 years, then public. My slogan was that I wasn't sure they learned anything at school, but at some point in the day they had to leave the house. So you're saying special ed and buses are half the cost of public schools?

Transportation is ridiculously expensive as is special ed. The the private school have a band, theater, art, foreign language, councilors, school nurse, state mandated curriculum, state mandated testing? Did they have to pay for a central office staff, school board elections? Every little bits add up. In today's money most of the private schools that offer things that are comparable to public schools have tuition in the 15-20k range and you have to pay for books, uniforms, and each extra curricular activity.

 

[speedstrength]

So Westlake, Highland Park, Lake Travis, Alamo Heights, the Woodlands etc are killing it and schools like Judson, Robstown, Weslaco, Carter are not.

I'm not going within fifty feet of that discussion..........

Of course not its the 8000 lb gorilla on the back of public education. Most people choose to ignore it and just blame teachers

So a little background OECD - Organization for Economic and Co-operation and Development. 35 of the most industrialized countries in the world

PISA - Program for International Student Assessment - standardized test overseen by the OECD and administered in 72 nations

The USA is typically towards the middle of the scale. From 2012-2015 average PISA scores from schools that sever the richest 25% of Americans are 528 some of the highest in the OECD. Scores for the schools that serve the poorest 25% of Americans is 425 among the lowest in the OECD. Researchers have reproduced this pattern in Australia, Germany, and the UK. It isn't just an American problem. But hey its still easier to blame teachers for the problem.

 

[TX1972]

2012-2015 PISA scores for schools that serve


Transportation is ridiculously expensive as is special ed. The the private school have a band, theater, art, foreign language, councilors, school nurse, state mandated curriculum, state mandated testing? Did they have to pay for a central office staff, school board elections? Every little bits add up. In today's money most of the private schools that offer things that are comparable to public schools have tuition in the 15-20k range and you have to pay for books, uniforms, and each extra curricular activity.

All this maybe true now. What if I don't want band, a $100 million dollar stadium with cracked cement, school counselors? Of course I went to school before cold water in the fountains. When you spend other people's money, you spend a lot of money.

 

[2300 Nueces]

False. Public schools with less than 20% of students on free or reduced lunch are the best in the world. PISA scores from these schools are higher than all other OECD countries. Yes, better than the hand picked schools in the rich Chinese yes better than the Northern European countries that are considered the gold standard for public education.

How about public schools with 80% of students on free or reduced lunch? Well the only country in the OECD those schools outperform is Mexico. So in Texas its really a mixed bag. If you can afford to live in the right attendence zone your kids are going to get a top notch education with great faculty, AP and dual credit programs and what ever else your kid will need to be successful. If you can only afford to live in a district here 80% of the kids are on free or reduced lunch then its a crap shoot. Teacher turn over is high, there aren't as many upper level programs, and students don't get all of the same opportunities.

One thing that really kills teachers is the ones that work in high poverty schools get compared to those that work in low poverty schools. They constantly are told they are the reason that schools aren't performing and that somehow private or charter schools are the answer. Guess what. When you look at the research and control for SES private schools and charter schools don't preform any better than the public schools. Do you really think if you took the faculty from Lady Bird Johnson High School which is one of San Antonio's best performing public high schools to South San High School that all of a sudden student outcomes would flip flop? Probably not. But no one really wants to address those issues. They just want to blame teachers.

Bravo for the balls to say it! This is the truth. Poverty breeds poverty which breeds bad behavior. This is a generational problem. Just like a kid with drug or alcohol addicted parents, there is only one way to break the cycle and that is to remove the children from the problem and teach them different living habits. But it will never happen, so the next best teacher is suffering the results of one's actions. The generous safety net needs to be cut and enforcement for breaking the law needs to stiffen.

On the flip side, prosperity is generational and built within the family. The good school districts ,as listed above, reap the rewards because of strong families. Eventually the problem of the poorer performing schools/communities will have to be dealt with because the strain on society becomes too great.

Blaming teachers is like putting a band aid on a severed arm.

 

[speedstrength]

All this maybe true now. What if I don't want band, a $100 million dollar stadium with cracked cement, school counselors? Of course I went to school before cold water in the fountains. When you spend other people's money, you spend a lot of money.

School finance in Texas gets very complicated very fast. I may not be 100% correct on all of this but there are basically different pools of money that cant be used for other things. I purposefully avoided facilities comparisons because that isn't used in calculating the per pupil expenditures but the M and O of those facilities are.

Funding for facilities comes from Bond Elections. The school board approves the formation of a bond committee which is usually made up of school and community personnel to develop a bond proposal. That bond proposal is then voted on by community members. If the bond proposal is approved by the voters then the school districts sells the bonds to investors and proceeds from the sale of the bonds can only be used for the things that were in the bond. You can't use it for the M&O side of things. So if you don't want the 100 million stadium then do something to defeat the bond.

 

[Longyac]

We left public schools with the TAKS. My eldest watched videos all day long for the last 5 weeks of school as the teachers were done teaching once the TAKS was taken as their bonus is based off TAKS results.

Texas pays ~13% under the national average for teachers. Texas is also dead last in pension contributions for teachers to the degree that the next worse state contributes twice as much. https://www.texastribune.org/2018/0...ployee-benefits-dead-last-retirement-funding/

The real fix is to move from property taxes, which were correct when we were an agrarian economy, to taxing income for the modern economy but no politician is going to touch that.

 

[oldschoolcat]

So if you don't want the 100 million stadium then do something to defeat the bond.

L-freaking-OL I have friends who have lost family over bond elections. The school districts bundle all of this waste into a nice election and then anyone who is against the bloated spending is then branded with the scarlet letter A as "Against the kids".

School districts build elaborate facilities and gobble up real estate. And if you dare question it you are beaten into submission until you go along.

 

[Longyac]

So Westlake, Highland Park, Lake Travis, Alamo Heights, the Woodlands etc are killing it and schools like Judson, Robstown, Weslaco, Carter are not.

I'm not going within fifty feet of that discussion..........

Hmmm... which have the highest real estate values to collect the most property taxes to pay for schools?

 

[2300 Nueces]

L-freaking-OL I have friends who have lost family over bond elections. The school districts bundle all of this waste into a nice election and then anyone who is against the bloated spending is then branded with the scarlet letter A as "Against the kids".

School districts build elaborate facilities and gobble up real estate. And if you dare question it you are beaten into submission until you go along.

So move......

 

[2300 Nueces]

Hmmm... which have the highest real estate values to collect the most property taxes to pay for schools?

And the problem is?

 

[oldschoolcat]

So move......

To Haiti? Not just talking about a single district. And you know that....

My beef with school funding is that the teachers have to pay out of their own pockets for supplies, PTO's have to donate playground equipment, my kids have to donate supplies for "needy" students.....all while another "Educational Village" is installed that includes athletic facilities that are superior to many NCAA universities. Oh...and my property taxes keep going up.

 

[Longyac]

And the problem is?

The money stays in the district and underfunded schools can never rise to the level of the super funded?

 

[2300 Nueces]

We left public schools with the TAKS. My eldest watched videos all day long for the last 5 weeks of school as the teachers were done teaching once the TAKS was taken as their bonus is based off TAKS results.

Texas pays ~13% under the national average for teachers. Texas is also dead last in pension contributions for teachers to the degree that the next worse state contributes twice as much. https://www.texastribune.org/2018/0...ployee-benefits-dead-last-retirement-funding/

The real fix is to move from property taxes, which were correct when we were an agrarian economy, to taxing income for the modern economy but no politician is going to touch that.

Income taxes punish work. We need to encourage saving not working less. Currently 40% of the US population has less than $400. Sales taxes are better, coupled with usury laws concerning credit cards and debt in general... Smarter consumption, less slavery, and more saving. Oh and by the way, teachers should fund their own pensions just like the private sector.... the way we get shortfalls is by promising what is not attainable through defined benefit pensions. As it stands, we have pensions managers losing money while the benefits compound at 7% a year. The tax payer is going to get the bill for this.

 

[2300 Nueces]

The money stays in the district and underfunded schools can never rise to the level of the super funded?

Money does not make one smarter. Effort and training make people better and smarter. If money were the answer, we would win the national title every year in football.

 

[oldschoolcat]

Income taxes punish work. We need to encourage saving not working less. Currently 40% of the US population has less than $400. Sales taxes are better, coupled with usury laws concerning credit cards and debt in general... Smarter consumption, less slavery, and more saving. Oh and by the way, teachers should fund their own pensions just like the private sector.... the way we get shortfalls is by promising what is not attainable through defined benefit pensions. As it stands, we have pensions managers losing money while the benefits compound at 7% a year. The tax payer is going to get the bill for this.

I don't disagree with any of this by the way. I would also include most public sector pensions like fire, police, city workers, dog catchers, and public works engineers. The private tax dollars should NOT be used to pay for people's retirements just because someone has written it into their ordinance.

 

[ekal48]

Income taxes punish work. We need to encourage saving not working less. Currently 40% of the US population has less than $400. Sales taxes are better, coupled with usury laws concerning credit cards and debt in general... Smarter consumption, less slavery, and more saving. Oh and by the way, teachers should fund their own pensions just like the private sector.... the way we get shortfalls is by promising what is not attainable through defined benefit pensions. As it stands, we have pensions managers losing money while the benefits compound at 7% a year. The tax payer is going to get the bill for this.

Sales tax hit the poor a lot harder than the rich. If you have to spend 100% of your income to live then 100% of your income is taxed. The wealthy spend a smaller portion of their income to live so not all of their income would be taxed. I agree on not taxing interest on savings, or putting age limits on IRA donations, lot of ways to encourage savings. That would help a lot of things.

Most wealthy people I know don't have a problem paying a higher tax rate as long is it is fair and reasonable. I would rather see lower capital gains for people that invest their money, don't tax money twice.

Everyone I know is for lower taxes, but no one wants their services cut. Cut services that don't affect me, cut services that effect someone else.
Getting rid of Govt., or Govt. services is not the answer, less but smarter more efficient Govt. is the answer. That's not happening with the collection of clowns that we have elected.

Ultimately it is the electorate that is at fault. We elect the people that once they get elected their job is to get re-elected, not serve the people. We, the electorate, really need to step up our game and understand the issues, not let Fox News or CNN define them for us. The more I dig into the issues the more I see that what we get on the news, both liberal and conservative, don't come close to what is going on. We are watching a dog and pony show on the news.

There is a lot bigger force called money that runs the dog and pony show.

 

[TX1972]

Hmmm... which have the highest real estate values to collect the most property taxes to pay for schools?

We've increased K12 education funding maybe 300%(after inflation). Money is not the problem. Only competition can do it. No rules, publish the test results. Let the best school win.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Sales tax hit the poor a lot harder than the rich. If you have to spend 100% of your income to live then 100% of your income is taxed. The wealthy spend a smaller portion of their income to live so not all of their income would be taxed. I agree on not taxing interest on savings, or putting age limits on IRA donations, lot of ways to encourage savings. That would help a lot of things.

Most wealthy people I know don't have a problem paying a higher tax rate as long is it is fair and reasonable. I would rather see lower capital gains for people that invest their money, don't tax money twice.

Everyone I know is for lower taxes, but no one wants their services cut. Cut services that don't affect me, cut services that effect someone else.
Getting rid of Govt., or Govt. services is not the answer, less but smarter more efficient Govt. is the answer. That's not happening with the collection of clowns that we have elected.

Ultimately it is the electorate that is at fault. We elect the people that once they get elected their job is to get re-elected, not serve the people. We, the electorate, really need to step up our game and understand the issues, not let Fox News or CNN define them for us. The more I dig into the issues the more I see that what we get on the news, both liberal and conservative, don't come close to what is going on. We are watching a dog and pony show on the news.

There is a lot bigger force called money that runs the dog and pony show.

The poor pay no taxes at the moment except for sales taxes. Actually when they get their EIT with handouts, etc.... they essentially pay no taxes. It's time to have some "skin in the game".

 

[ekal48]

I'm poor and I pay taxes.

 

[2300 Nueces]

I'm poor and I pay taxes.

Please explain.