Gettysburg Recap.....Was Sickles Right?

[freeper]

Well me boyos, I'm returned from Gettysburg/Sharpsburg and on the mend. According to the doc it looks like I tore my right adductor, sprained/strained my meniscus and pulled the tensor fasciae. (I don't know, it's all Latin to me....) Made my trip sporty and painful but memorable nonetheless. Finally off the cane, much reduced on the meds and getting around with a knee brace now. Should be handling a full load of yardwork this week.

The reason for the trip was two-fold. I had been to both Gettysburg and Antietam years ago with the family but didn't really get to survey the ground at that time. This time, accompanied by some fellow LEO retiree friends and fellow Civil War buffs, we wanted to address two questions: first, why did General Lee pick that particular ground along Antietam Creek for battle? What was the march route like for A.P. Hill when he was driving his Light Division to Lee's rescue on September 17, 1862? The second question we wanted to examine was one of the most controversial of the entire War Between the States. Was Union General Dan Sickles right to move his III Corps off Cemetery Ridge on July 2, 1863? Sickles claimed that he was taking a better position, forward of Cemetery Ridge, but which left him unsupported and subsequently led to his losing a leg in the fighting, and his III Corps being crushed by the sledgehammer attack of the Confederate I Corps under General James Longstreet.

Well after taking this trip, I have my answers, or at least a better understanding of the decision-making process that these men went through given the time and circumstances. I definitely plan on returning to those fields when fully mobile again. You can feel the history in your soul as you survey the terrain, read the markers and breathe air.

 

[clob94]

Damn. You got off into the weeds. I didn't know half this stuff.

 

[freeper]

Damn. You got off into the weeds. I didn't know half this stuff.

What weed? Hell I didn't even smoke any of the cigars I took with me. Was in too much pain to enjoy them. If you're diving down a rabbit-hole studying the decisions made by Lee and Sickles because of my post, well then I'm doing my job.....gotta fill that time before the Gridiron Campaign....

 

[curveball1]

did you see @drunk randoke there by any chance?

 

[Belldozer1]

Well me boyos, I'm returned from Gettysburg/Sharpsburg and on the mend. According to the doc it looks like I tore my right adductor, sprained/strained my meniscus and pulled the tensor fasciae. (I don't know, it's all Latin to me....) Made my trip sporty and painful but memorable nonetheless. Finally off the cane, much reduced on the meds and getting around with a knee brace now. Should be handling a full load of yardwork this week.

The reason for the trip was two-fold. I had been to both Gettysburg and Antietam years ago with the family but didn't really get to survey the ground at that time. This time, accompanied by some fellow LEO retiree friends and fellow Civil War buffs, we wanted to address two questions: first, why did General Lee pick that particular ground along Antietam Creek for battle? What was the march route like for A.P. Hill when he was driving his Light Division to Lee's rescue on September 17, 1862? The second question we wanted to examine was one of the most controversial of the entire War Between the States. Was Union General Dan Sickles right to move his III Corps off Cemetery Ridge on July 2, 1863? Sickles claimed that he was taking a better position, forward of Cemetery Ridge, but which left him unsupported and subsequently led to his losing a leg in the fighting, and his III Corps being crushed by the sledgehammer attack of the Confederate I Corps under General James Longstreet.

Well after taking this trip, I have my answers, or at least a better understanding of the decision-making process that these men went through given the time and circumstances. I definitely plan on returning to those fields when fully mobile again. You can feel the history in your soul as you survey the terrain, read the markers and breathe air.

Sounds like you tried to reenact the civil war and got the worst of it, hope you get to feeling better

 

[drunk randoke]

Well me boyos, I'm returned from Gettysburg/Sharpsburg and on the mend. According to the doc it looks like I tore my right adductor, sprained/strained my meniscus and pulled the tensor fasciae. (I don't know, it's all Latin to me....) Made my trip sporty and painful but memorable nonetheless. Finally off the cane, much reduced on the meds and getting around with a knee brace now. Should be handling a full load of yardwork this week.

The reason for the trip was two-fold. I had been to both Gettysburg and Antietam years ago with the family but didn't really get to survey the ground at that time. This time, accompanied by some fellow LEO retiree friends and fellow Civil War buffs, we wanted to address two questions: first, why did General Lee pick that particular ground along Antietam Creek for battle? What was the march route like for A.P. Hill when he was driving his Light Division to Lee's rescue on September 17, 1862? The second question we wanted to examine was one of the most controversial of the entire War Between the States. Was Union General Dan Sickles right to move his III Corps off Cemetery Ridge on July 2, 1863? Sickles claimed that he was taking a better position, forward of Cemetery Ridge, but which left him unsupported and subsequently led to his losing a leg in the fighting, and his III Corps being crushed by the sledgehammer attack of the Confederate I Corps under General James Longstreet.

Well after taking this trip, I have my answers, or at least a better understanding of the decision-making process that these men went through given the time and circumstances. I definitely plan on returning to those fields when fully mobile again. You can feel the history in your soul as you survey the terrain, read the markers and breathe air.

Thanks for the invite to my favorite place in the world

 

[freeper]

Sounds like you tried to reenact the civil war and got the worst of it, hope you get to feeling better

Well @Belldozer1 I did my part. Dan Sickles lost his right leg at Gettysburg. Since I was trying to understand what he was thinking when he decided to move his corps forward, it seems only apropos that my injuries were likewise to my right leg. Perhaps that colored my thinking, because having walked the ground now, I can understand what his thought process....

 

[freeper]

Thanks for the invite to my favorite place in the world

Next time I'm headed out to Gettysburg @drunk randoke, I'll be sure to extend an invite to you. I didn't know there were any other Civil War enthusiasts around here.

 

[drunk randoke]

Next time I'm headed out to Gettysburg @drunk randoke, I'll be sure to extend an invite to you. I didn't know there were any other Civil War enthusiasts around here.

Go there every year. I’ve been seven times. Quite obsessed!

 

[clob94]

Well me boyos, I'm returned from Gettysburg/Sharpsburg and on the mend. According to the doc it looks like I tore my right adductor, sprained/strained my meniscus and pulled the tensor fasciae. (I don't know, it's all Latin to me....) Made my trip sporty and painful but memorable nonetheless. Finally off the cane, much reduced on the meds and getting around with a knee brace now. Should be handling a full load of yardwork this week.

The reason for the trip was two-fold. I had been to both Gettysburg and Antietam years ago with the family but didn't really get to survey the ground at that time. This time, accompanied by some fellow LEO retiree friends and fellow Civil War buffs, we wanted to address two questions: first, why did General Lee pick that particular ground along Antietam Creek for battle? What was the march route like for A.P. Hill when he was driving his Light Division to Lee's rescue on September 17, 1862? The second question we wanted to examine was one of the most controversial of the entire War Between the States. Was Union General Dan Sickles right to move his III Corps off Cemetery Ridge on July 2, 1863? Sickles claimed that he was taking a better position, forward of Cemetery Ridge, but which left him unsupported and subsequently led to his losing a leg in the fighting, and his III Corps being crushed by the sledgehammer attack of the Confederate I Corps under General James Longstreet.

Well after taking this trip, I have my answers, or at least a better understanding of the decision-making process that these men went through given the time and circumstances. I definitely plan on returning to those fields when fully mobile again. You can feel the history in your soul as you survey the terrain, read the markers and breathe air.

Did he have a slightly elevated position there? Did he think he could hold off an enemy charge if he was shooting downhill?

 

[2300 Nueces]

Next time I'm headed out to Gettysburg @drunk randoke, I'll be sure to extend an invite to you. I didn't know there were any other Civil War enthusiasts around here.

History doesn't repeat but it rhymes. What were to causes of the CW? I understand the old public school trope of slavery and while (chattel) slavery was settled in the CW, there were larger financial issues at play, no?

BTW, we still have debt slavery today, fwiw.

 

[TX1972]

History doesn't repeat but it rhymes. What were to causes of the CW? I understand the old public school trope of slavery and while (chattel) slavery was settled in the CW, there were larger financial issues at play, no?

BTW, we still have debt slavery today, fwiw.

According to TR Fehrenbach, the Texas voters were terrified of a massacre of whites by emancipated blacks. Inspifed by the Haitian massacre of whites. The most afraid were the poorer folks, many of whom had little experience with slaves. The planters were confident that this would not happen. During the war, when so many men were in Virginia, the planters were proven correct.

 

[weevilcatch]

Well me boyos, I'm returned from Gettysburg/Sharpsburg and on the mend. According to the doc it looks like I tore my right adductor, sprained/strained my meniscus and pulled the tensor fasciae. (I don't know, it's all Latin to me....) Made my trip sporty and painful but memorable nonetheless. Finally off the cane, much reduced on the meds and getting around with a knee brace now. Should be handling a full load of yardwork this week.

The reason for the trip was two-fold. I had been to both Gettysburg and Antietam years ago with the family but didn't really get to survey the ground at that time. This time, accompanied by some fellow LEO retiree friends and fellow Civil War buffs, we wanted to address two questions: first, why did General Lee pick that particular ground along Antietam Creek for battle? What was the march route like for A.P. Hill when he was driving his Light Division to Lee's rescue on September 17, 1862? The second question we wanted to examine was one of the most controversial of the entire War Between the States. Was Union General Dan Sickles right to move his III Corps off Cemetery Ridge on July 2, 1863? Sickles claimed that he was taking a better position, forward of Cemetery Ridge, but which left him unsupported and subsequently led to his losing a leg in the fighting, and his III Corps being crushed by the sledgehammer attack of the Confederate I Corps under General James Longstreet.

Well after taking this trip, I have my answers, or at least a better understanding of the decision-making process that these men went through given the time and circumstances. I definitely plan on returning to those fields when fully mobile again. You can feel the history in your soul as you survey the terrain, read the markers and breathe air.

Glad you're getting better....all that sounds terrible.

How about the sheer "luck" if you will of Little Round Top? Who was it from Penn, Strong? Anyway his spotters saw through some trees the left flank I believe at just the right time and they were able to hold them off until the artillery battery made it. I think it was a Texas group of soldiers led by Hood that was seen and/or fought off last? Like that group apparently almost made it...under sniper fire as well, but they were held off. It's been a minute since I've been up there so I might be getting things jumbled.

I do remember looking down Little Round Top into Devils Den and thinking how the hell did they see them?

Another question is, quite simply after seeing the field and fence line, what in the **** was Lee (Pickett's charge) thinking?

 

[freeper]

Go there every year. I’ve been seven times. Quite obsessed!

That's a healthy obsession. Only been there twice myself but have thoroughly loved the experience and will definitely go again. My wife had kin on both sides of the field at Sharpsburg and Gettysburg.

 

[freeper]

Did he have a slightly elevated position there? Did he think he could hold off an enemy charge if he was shooting downhill?

Sickles had several things in mind. The Union defeat at Chancellorsville was only a couple months past and in that battle, he observed Howard's XI Corps utterly routed as Stonewall Jackson rolled up the Yankee flank. Howard's Corps had been poorly deployed and their flank exposed. Sickles had also been forced to retreat from high ground that turned into a Confederate artillerists dream and resulted in a constant pounding of the Federal troops as they beat a retreat to the Rappahannock River.

Fast forward to Gettysburg and Sickles is told to occupy the southernmost positions on Cemetery Ridge. As he did so, he could see that there was higher ground ahead, only about 10' feet or so, but it was sufficient that he could not really observe the approach of Longstreet's corps marching to the attack. As deployed, Sickles also felt that his flank was needlessly exposed to the approaching Graybacks. So without notifying his chain of command, he moved his corps forward to take that high ground which happened to be near the Emmittsburg Road and which straddled the axis of advance that General Lee had stipulated for General Longstreet.

I'm hoping to game this problem out this week. If I could figure out how to post pics from my phone, I'd post them so you could see the map and the terrain.

 

[2300 Nueces]

According to TR Fehrenbach, the Texas voters were terrified of a massacre of whites by emancipated blacks. Inspifed by the Haitian massacre of whites. The most afraid were the poorer folks, many of whom had little experience with slaves. The planters were confident that this would not happen. During the war, when so many men were in Virginia, the planters were proven correct.

From what I've read, I'll timed tariffs at the late stages of a credit cycle plus the push to end slavery were a chorus of issues that pushed the South to secede.

 

[TX1972]

From what I've read, I'll timed tariffs at the late stages of a credit cycle plus the push to end slavery were a chorus of issues that pushed the South to secede.

Have you read Lone Star? Best history of Texas.

 

[oldhorn2]

Another question is, quite simply after seeing the field and fence line, what in the **** was Lee (Pickett's charge) thinking?

Weevil, you have to understand what was at stake.Lee knew he could not win an extended war. He went North in the first placeto try and secure a victory of sorts that would cause the Union to sue for peace. He was not wanting the battle that became Gettysburg at that place, but it just blew up on him. He was somewhat fighting blind because Stewarts Cavalry got held up and never reported in. His normally superior intel of enemy positions was completely absent. When the subsiquent battle was going badly, ne pulled out all the stops and sent in Pickett. As was expected, that did not go well.

Freeper....how am I doing? I was only 10 or so at the time so my memorys might be a little off.....

 

[weevilcatch]

Weevil, you have to understand what was at stake.Lee knew he could not win an extended war. He went North in the first placeto try and secure a victory of sorts that would cause the Union to sue for peace. He was not wanting the battle that became Gettysburg at that place, but it just blew up on him. He was somewhat fighting blind because Stewarts Cavalry got held up and never reported in. His normally superior intel of enemy positions was completely absent. When the subsiquent battle was going badly, ne pulled out all the stops and sent in Pickett. As was expected, that did not go well.

Freeper....how am I doing? I was only 10 or so at the time so my memorys might be a little off.....

I understand all that, but after standing on that field and walking the Union fence line, I can’t imagine someone with Lees brain really thought it would’ve worked. They were decimated and Lee lamented. Pickett begrudgingly followed orders. Even he knew it was a terrible idea.

I think he panicked. Or he was ready to be done whether through exhaustion or guilt. Maybe both.

 

[freeper]

History doesn't repeat but it rhymes. What were to causes of the CW? I understand the old public school trope of slavery and while (chattel) slavery was settled in the CW, there were larger financial issues at play, no?

BTW, we still have debt slavery today, fwiw.

In my interview for the job I start next month, I had to discuss the causes of the Civil War. Of course slavery was the central cause of the conflict, more precisely, it was the debate over the extension of slavery into the Western Territories. Take that argument away and I still believe that sooner or later, a civil war would have occurred between North and South. There were simply too many divides between the regions. In addition to slavery, you had cultural, religious, political and economic fissures that contributed to the growing sectionalism in the young republic. Remember that in 1814, it was the Northern states that wanted to secede over opposition to the War of 1812. In 1832, South Carolina was ready to leave the union over the Tariff of Abominations but blinked when confronted by President Jackson and the realization that no other Southern state was prepared to leave at that time.

I could go on and on about this. Sectionalism and the resultant War Between the States was a crossroads for our nation and I fervently hope that we can avoid another. Which is one reason I study the past one so closely, and make sure my students understand the gravity of the issues then and now.

 

[freeper]

Freeper....how am I doing? I was only 10 or so at the time so my memorys might be a little off.....

Not too shabby @oldhorn2, you'd pass my class pretty easily.....

 

[freeper]

I understand all that, but after standing on that field and walking the Union fence line, I can’t imagine someone with Lees brain really thought it would’ve worked. They were decimated and Lee lamented. Pickett begrudgingly followed orders. Even he knew it was a terrible idea.

I think he panicked. Or he was ready to be done whether through exhaustion or guilt. Maybe both.

@weevilcatch this is a question that historians have been debating since July 4th, 1863. Sadly Lee never got around to writing his own memoirs and the accounts left to us by the other leading Confederate commanders do not exactly clarify Lee's thinking. So the best we can do is guesswork. In more recent times, it has become fashionable in history salons to take any opportunity to belittle Lee and his decision-making at Gettysburg. It certainly was not his finest moment but I think there are things we often fail to consider.

First, Lee had been in ill-health after his great victory at Chancellorsville and the stress of re-organizing the ANV after the death of Stonewall Jackson was a stressful affair. There has been some speculation that Lee was sick with the heart disease that eventually killed him and he felt a keen sense of his mortality. More realistically though is Lee's experience. He had watched in the Mexican War repeatedly as an outnumbered American army successfully assaulted superior defensive works of the Mexican army. The attackers won because of their elan and training.

In the year prior to Gettysburg, Lee's army had shown time and again that they could overcome tremendous obstacles and launch fearsome attacks on a numerically superior foe. From June 1862 until July 1863, Lee's Army of Northern Virginia became the single most successful institution in the short-lived Confederate States of America. See the Peninsula Campaign, the Second Manassas Campaign, Sharpsburg/Antietam, Fredericksburg, Chancellorsville. General Lee during that year really began to believe that his troops could accomplish any task if well led.

While Lee did not desire the fight that he got at Gettysburg, I think he truly believed he could win the battle. On the first day of the battle, the ANV effectively decimated 2 Union corps, leaving 5 more to deal with. The second day of the battle, while indecisive, still resulted in Lee's army destroying the Union III Corps and elements of two other corps. On day 3 I think that Lee honestly believed that an effective artillery barrage by Porter Alexander would soften up the Federal troops on Cemetery Ridge enough for Pickett's, Pettigrew's and Trimble's divisions to punch through. The problem though was follow-through. There simply were not enough Confederates to exploit any breakthrough but Lee as you pointed out, did not have an accurate assessment of the number of Federals he was confronted with. Thank you JEB Stuart.

Lee knew that the South could not win a war of attrition, which is why he was so aggressive, always looking for a chance to win a battle of annihilation in the Napoleonic style. Unfortunately for him, that style had been superseded by advances in weaponry which had conferred the advantage in battle to the defense. Lee knew this, but neither his nor the temperament of the Southern people would countenance a defensive war when so much of the South was being laid waste and was occupied by the Yankee army. Lee almost had no choice but to attack given his nature, the political climate of the South, the expectations of his army and of his commanders.

 

[oldhorn2]

Another thing Freeper....The Union had the superior rail road and could move goods and troops anywhere rapidly. However, the most important advantage the Union had was a very good telegraph system that the South lacked. Lincoln was made aware almost instantly what was going on everywhere and the South simply did not have this ability.

 

[freeper]

Another thing Freeper....The Union had the superior rail road and could move goods and troops anywhere rapidly. However, the most important advantage the Union had was a very good telegraph system that the South lacked. Lincoln was made aware almost instantly what was going on everywhere and the South simply did not have this ability.

True enough @oldhorn2 . The South, reliant as it was on cotton, tobacco and sugar, never really needed to develop a railroad network as was done in the North. All of these crops were closely tied to riverine systems in the lowlands so transporting the crops to markets was a simple affair of floating them downriver, whether the James, the Ashley, the Savannah, the Mississippi, the Brazos, you get the idea. Once the crops were in the great ports of the South, whether Norfolk, Charleston, Savannah, New Orleans or Galveston, it was open to shipment all around the world. No railroads needed. Especially since Southern politicians were adamantly opposed to increased taxes or tariffs to fund the expansion of the railroad.

It is ironic then that one of first heralded uses of the railroad during war was effected by the Confederate States when in the run-up to the Battle of First Manassas, General Joe Johnston rapidly brought his Confederate Army of the Shenandoah over the mountains by rail, to reinforce General Beauregard's Confederate Army of the Potomac. (Yeah, once Lee took over and renamed it, things got a lot less confusing.) The first great battle of the war was a Confederate victory, but only at the tactical and not the strategic level. A situation that would dog Confederate commanders throughout the conflict.

 

[oldhorn2]

yes, but in the battle of Gettysburg, a whole Union Corps was turned and relocated to the fray in time to play a big part. That was because of instant telegraph communication.

 

[oldhorn2]

Freeper.....I have also been reading up on Longstreet. There apparently is some blame put on him for losing that battle because he disagreed with the action of moving into the North.....so he delayed entering the battle and thus allowed the Union to establish better positioning. I never knew about that.

 

[2300 Nueces]

In my interview for the job I start next month, I had to discuss the causes of the Civil War. Of course slavery was the central cause of the conflict, more precisely, it was the debate over the extension of slavery into the Western Territories. Take that argument away and I still believe that sooner or later, a civil war would have occurred between North and South. There were simply too many divides between the regions. In addition to slavery, you had cultural, religious, political and economic fissures that contributed to the growing sectionalism in the young republic. Remember that in 1814, it was the Northern states that wanted to secede over opposition to the War of 1812. In 1832, South Carolina was ready to leave the union over the Tariff of Abominations but blinked when confronted by President Jackson and the realization that no other Southern state was prepared to leave at that time.

I could go on and on about this. Sectionalism and the resultant War Between the States was a crossroads for our nation and I fervently hope that we can avoid another. Which is one reason I study the past one so closely, and make sure my students understand the gravity of the issues then and now.

The North is at it again. They are using foreigners as their invading army. If this is not rectified soon, I can see fighting soon.

Edit: The first time they used the Irish, now they are using the Latin Americans.

 

[2300 Nueces]

 

[clob94]

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Interesting layout.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Looks like the younger generation (men) are waking up to the realities of life in the USA. We're not far boys. It's coming.

This appears to be very popular. Not sure why they haven't banned it yet.