Questions about Big XII defenses

[outhereincali]

1. What do you think is the toughest thing to stop about Big XII offenses? Is it the players being so spread out, or is it how many plays per game.

From a fans points point of view I think it's how many plays you can run a game. I've noticed the last couple of years that when Clemson or Baylor run 80+ per game they can humiliate the other teams defense. I saw Baylor run more than 100 plays a couple of years ago against a good TCU defense and they dropped 61 points and almost 800 total yards on them. Also when you run that many plays the game can last up to four hours and that will exhaust even a good defense. When you have a qb like DeShawn Watson, who can do it all you have to outscore them to even have a chance. Offenses like C or B, or TCU when Boykin was healthy, they go into a game and if they try to run the ball and stop them by the third possession they find out what you wont be able to stop. Add a qb with Watson's running ability and say goodnight folks.

I wonder what if a Big XII defense can field a couple of lock down cb's would that be more important than having a good front four? Certainly it would increase the number of coverage sacks. Oklahoma came close to having that last year with Jordan Thomas and Sanchez. Of course the key to last year's RRR was sacking Baker Mayfield what was it 6 times? And be sure to add in the tfl and the no gains and its really impressive numbers. I suppose Bonney and Boyd will start the season at cb how much more improvement would it be if they or somebody become lock down cb's? What Im wondering is that when it comes to Big XII defenses can lock down cb's be more important than a pass rush? Probably not but I would like so some Big XII defenses come up with that.

 

[bubba2023]

All that plays a role (tempo, spacing, speed) but it's still football. The way you beat a team is controlling the LOS. That's where it starts no matter your offense. You can't rely on coverage sacks. They exists but it's not something that's going to consistently happen during a game even with great corners. Nothing compares to the havoc that getting pressure on the QB with your front four creates.

Also in the college game with the clock stoppages statistically your defense is going to see a lot of plays against an uptempo no huddle offense. That means more yardage given up, but that doesn't mean the defense didn't play well. That's going to increase your average compared to someone that may not face a lot hurry up offenses so simply comparing stats is an apples and oranges picture.

 

[diadevic]

Nothing compares to the havoc that getting pressure on the QB with your front four creates..

Having watched every play of the Briles era twice (at least) - pressure will disrupt the offense. You give the QB time, and one of the 5 WR's will get open. Give him no time (and as a corollary slow down the running game) and the offense will struggle. One of the truisms of football - control the line, and you will control the game, regardless of offensive style.

 

[jsto60]

I suppose Bonney and Boyd will start the season at cb how much more improvement would it be if they or somebody become lock down cb's? What Im wondering is that when it comes to Big XII defenses can lock down cb's be more important than a pass rush? Probably not but I would like so some Big XII defenses come up with that.

So Hill and Davis will be our starting CBs. Bonney will play slot and also rotate in at S. Boyd will play slot and mix in at outside corners to rest the starters. Locke will play in the slot. Cuffee is too talented to RS, although we certainly have the depth. Old man and track star Sheriod Evans is not a guy to sleep on. Injuries have plagued his career, but he is healthy and will be in the mix at corner.

If we are blessed anywhere it is with lockdown and even pretty young yet experienced CBs.

And still pass rush and owning the line of scrimmage is where football starts. You run enough pass plays or have enough time to run around as a WR and eventually one guy will get open. Conversely, you pressure the QB and he struggles even to complete passes to open guys. Pressure on the ball is always key, as it slows the matriculation of the ball forward.

 

[outhereincali]

All that plays a role (tempo, spacing, speed) but it's still football. The way you beat a team is controlling the LOS. That's where it starts no matter your offense. You can't rely on coverage sacks. They exists but it's not something that's going to consistently happen during a game even with great corners. Nothing compares to the havoc that getting pressure on the QB with your front four creates.

Also in the college game with the clock stoppages statistically your defense is going to see a lot of plays against an uptempo no huddle offense. That means more yardage given up, but that doesn't mean the defense didn't play well. That's going to increase your average compared to someone that may not face a lot hurry up offenses so simply comparing stats is an apples and oranges picture.

I'm sure you're correct but why doesn't the Big XII have pass rushers like Joey Bosa?

 

[outhereincali]

So Hill and Davis will be our starting CBs. Bonney will play slot and also rotate in at S. Boyd will play slot and mix in at outside corners to rest the starters. Locke will play in the slot. Cuffee is too talented to RS, although we certainly have the depth. Old man and track star Sheriod Evans is not a guy to sleep on. Injuries have plagued his career, but he is healthy and will be in the mix at corner.

If we are blessed anywhere it is with lockdown and even pretty young yet experienced CBs.

And still pass rush and owning the line of scrimmage is where football starts. You run enough pass plays or have enough time to run around as a WR and eventually one guy will get open. Conversely, you pressure the QB and he struggles even to complete passes to open guys. Pressure on the ball is always key, as it slows the matriculation of the ball forward.

As I said about I'm sure you're correct but why doesn't the Big XII have any championship caliber defenses and what does it take for our conference to come up with even one team with that kind of defense?

 

[bubba2023]

I'm sure you're correct but why doesn't the Big XII have pass rushers like Joey Bosa?

Because a lot of elite defensive players are going elsewhere. Joey Bosa like players aren't signing up to big 12 schools. Not that the recruiting rankings are everything, but the Big 12 as a conference is horrible at recruiting. Texas and OU are really the only two programs that can recruit at the elite level and they've both been down the past few years.

Regardless the big 12 isn't going to produce a statistically great defense. They will always look worse in total yardage because they are going to see a lot more plays than a Big 10 or SEC school. I am not making a case that the big 12 is just as good, but just stating a defense that gives up 400 yards a game isn't necessarily worse than one that gives up 350 yards a game.

 

[Heisennberg]

I think the offensive style of the powerhouses in the big 12 dictate how programs are recruiting their defensive talent. You have wiiiiiide open offenses with gunslinger qbs in Baylor, Tcu, Ttech, osu, wvu, and OU..now with tx changing up their offense, this league requires a special kind of defensive scheme to combat it. And even good defenses look silly in the big 12. Whereas in conferences such as sec and the big 10 you have more conventional offenses week after week so you can focus your recruiting strategy to beating them. It's more difficult to just focus on getting a bunch of stud Dlinemen when you play all the wide open offenses and stud qbs of our league, you cant get away with loading all your best players on the line. Back in the day the big 12 had dominant defenses , just in the early 2000s you knew OU, KSU, TX (maybe nebraska) were going to be some of the best around.

 

[bubba2023]

You'll have to define what a championship caliber defense is? If it's one that wins a championship, only one team at the end of the year can boast that they have one of those.

 

[bubba2023]

I think the offensive style of the powerhouses in the big 12 dictate how programs are recruiting their defensive talent. You have wiiiiiide open offenses with gunslinger qbs in Baylor, Tcu, Ttech, osu, wvu, and OU..now with tx changing up their offense, this league requires a special kind of defensive scheme to combat it. And even good defenses look silly in the big 12. Whereas in conferences such as sec and the big 10 you have more conventional offenses week after week so you can focus your recruiting strategy to beating them. It's more difficult to just focus on getting a bunch of stud Dlinemen when you play all the wide open offenses and stud qbs of our league, you cant get away with loading all your best players on the line. Back in the day the big 12 had dominant defenses , just in the early 2000s you knew OU, KSU, TX (maybe nebraska) were going to be some of the best around.

I think that's a misnomer. Some variation of the spread is everywhere now. Any offense that is successful at a high level has great balance and great OL. No one is winning it throwing it around with gunslinger QBs a la Leach at Tech. Baylor and Ohio State are incredibly balanced. As far as the big 12 recruiting I don't think they are recruiting a lot the guys they sign by choice. TCU would gladly change defensive classes with a lot of schools that aren't in the big 12.

 

[Heisennberg]

I think that's a misnomer. Some variation of the spread is everywhere now. Any offense that is successful at a high level has great balance and great OL. No one is winning it throwing it around with gunslinger QBs a la Leach at Tech. Baylor and Ohio State are incredibly balanced. As far as the big 12 recruiting I don't think they are recruiting a lot the guys they sign by choice. TCU would gladly change defensive classes with a lot of schools that aren't in the big 12.

Some variation yes, but was there another conference last year who had as many quality qbs and high powered offenses to face week in and week out than the big 12? Three of the nation's top 10 offense were in the big 12. The big 12 has a pass happy offensive happy reputation for a reason. To me this changes how you must recruit to combat them. The better offenses have balance but where the big 12 offenses excel is offense through the air and wining or not, those gunslingers were often making defenses look stupid. So to go with your statement, b12 not recruiting a lot of guys by choice- well what's the reason for that? why are we stuck with the scraps instead of the turkey? maybe its the style of ball we play here week in and week out being being different than what you see week in and week out at the top of the sec and big 10. maybe its easier to talk those 5 star studs on D to play in a conference who plays more conventional offenses all throughout the league. We not only score more but also rum more plays. Big 12 surely doesnt seem to have trouble signing big time playmakers on offense.

 

[jsto60]

I'm sure you're correct but why doesn't the Big XII have pass rushers like Joey Bosa?

It does.

As I said about I'm sure you're correct but why doesn't the Big XII have any championship caliber defenses and what does it take for our conference to come up with even one team with that kind of defense?

It has.

And it is a pretty huge mistake to comment that our starters at CB will be Boyd and Bonney. Its not even close that Hill and Davis are ahead of them. Boyd is behind that. And all 3 could be lockdown guys as SOs.

Bonney isn't even playing corner any more. Thats how far behind he is in this conversation.



I know it isn't the crux of your point. But your point is littered with issues, like the above. And acting like there just isn't ever a D in the conf. Go back and look at rankings. Plenty of times the conf has had a top 20 Defense or 2. And that is NC caliber in any book.

 

[Belldozer1]

OU by far had the best D in the league last year but sure didn't look like it in the bowl game. Different match ups and Clemson's looked much better starting with the LOS

 

[diadevic]

There was an SI article a few years ago - the year Okie St. won the Fiesta Bowl. The gist of the article was that you couldn't just look at total yards or points allowed as a measurement of a good defense. With the no huddle, massive increase in number of plays, teams going for it more on 4th down, etc., the stats are going to slide, but it doesn't mean the defense is bad. They were looking at different metrics like yards per play, total number of times holding without a score, and others that were beyond my pay grade. Sorry couldn't find the article.

 

[Bama_Teacher_inTX]

Right now some of the officiating is favoring offense big time. Tempo has something to do with it, but I believe that defenses are playing handcuffed right now because of things other than tempo. Sometimes offenses are getting away with blatant penalties that make it impossible to play defense. If referees would call illegal man downfield consistently, start calling offensive PI more often, and not call every ticky tack PI on defenses than maybe we would see better defense.

Saban made the wrong argument a couple of years ago when he tried to get that up tempo offenses out of football. What he SHOULD have argued was more strict enforcement of penalties on offenses.

 

[bubba2023]

They don't? How do you define talent production, stats? The big 12 certainly has no shortage of offensive stats, but stats are also a function of your opponent and can be completely pointless. They certainly have trouble producing players at the next level on offense and defense. How many big time offensive play makers are produced by the conference? I'm not saying there are none, there just aren't enough imo. There were 2 first round offensive players from the big 12. Add one more in the 2nd round.

Edit
this was in response to Heisennberg's post regarding offense talent in big 12. I misread your post as talent production which I think the big 12 ability on that front is debatable, but you specifically state signing big time offensive talent. I don't think that's debatable at all. Who are the big time players this conference has signed recently. Obviously individual teams are doing well in recruiting, but as a whole the conference is not signing a lot of big time talent offense or defense.

 

[bubba2023]

There was an SI article a few years ago - the year Okie St. won the Fiesta Bowl. The gist of the article was that you couldn't just look at total yards or points allowed as a measurement of a good defense. With the no huddle, massive increase in number of plays, teams going for it more on 4th down, etc., the stats are going to slide, but it doesn't mean the defense is bad. They were looking at different metrics like yards per play, total number of times holding without a score, and others that were beyond my pay grade. Sorry couldn't find the article.

I remember that. Maybe not that specific article, but that year OK State was a very complete team. They would have played for a NC if they didn't have that loss to Iowa State after the plane crash tragedy. Anyways on a per play basis their defense was comparable to Alabama's if not better if I remember correctly.

 

[outhereincali]

It does.



It has.

And it is a pretty huge mistake to comment that our starters at CB will be Boyd and Bonney. Its not even close that Hill and Davis are ahead of them. Boyd is behind that. And all 3 could be lockdown guys as SOs.

Bonney isn't even playing corner any more. Thats how far behind he is in this conversation.



I know it isn't the crux of your point. But your point is littered with issues, like the above. And acting like there just isn't ever a D in the conf. Go back and look at rankings. Plenty of times the conf has had a top 20 Defense or 2. And that is NC caliber in any book.

Something that really concerns me is the last two years the Big XII went 5/9 in bowl games the last two years and in this losses the defenses played horrible. Even the three teams that won gave up a total of 121 points. Also this year everybody except Baylor has at least one big non con game. I'm really concerned that were going to hve a mediocre showing in those games.

You're right I'm asking a lot of questions but I'm disappointed in Big XII defenses and I don't know where to start. And I'm glad to hear about Hill and Davis ahead of Boyd and Bonney. I do realize that a good spread offense is hard to stop. Although they lost look at what Clemson's spread did against Bama.

But you know Coach Strong had a well deserved reputation for developing players when he was Louisville. I look at his last two recruiting classes and it seems that the majority of the top recruits are on defense. I look at this year's class and I look forward to seeing Brandon Jones playing for the horns, maybe our next great safety, I hope he plays this year. If Coach Strong can take these kids to the next level we could have a great defense by any standard.

 

[bubba2023]

Right now some of the officiating is favoring offense big time. Tempo has something to do with it, but I believe that defenses are playing handcuffed right now because of things other than tempo. Sometimes offenses are getting away with blatant penalties that make it impossible to play defense. If referees would call illegal man downfield consistently, start calling offensive PI more often, and not call every ticky tack PI on defenses than maybe we would see better defense.

Saban made the wrong argument a couple of years ago when he tried to get that up tempo offenses out of football. What he SHOULD have argued was more strict enforcement of penalties on offenses.

I agree. Rules in the name of safety have made playing defense completely different than 20 years ago. Officials are told to err on the side of safety which often means flagging defenders even if they aren't sure. Not to mention the trend to just promote offense because that sells. So QBs are more protected, WRs are given more benefit of the doubt, lax holding calls on the OL. I can't fault a defensive coach saying how about a little something for our side of the ball.

 

[diadevic]

Something that really concerns me is the last two years the Big XII went 5/9 in bowl games the last two years and in this losses the defenses played horrible. Even the three teams that won gave up a total of 121 points. Also this year everybody except Baylor has at least one big non con game. I'm really concerned that were going to hve a mediocre showing in those games. .

This conference will always be considered mediocre until Texas steps up. Let's go Charlie - make it happen.

 

[Texxxxas]

When a few teams in the SEC switched it up a few years ago, and got some really good QB's, like A&M and Auburn, SEC defenses started to look just like those in the Big 12, including Bama. It's really not that deep. The moment they got a few good QB's, and the Big 12 had a down year or two in that area, the Big 12 started playing better defense. Stoops was asked about it, and I like that Bob Stoops had the nuts to point out, what others would not, and he pointed out what others tend to make more complicated than it really is. But perception is everything. See below...

"Just a few years ago, we had all the quarterbacks," Stoops said in a small session with beat reporters, according to The Oklahoman. "And now, all of a sudden, we can play a little better defense and some other people can't play defense.

"Funny how people can't play defense when they have pro-style quarterbacks over there, which we've had. They're all playing in the NFL right now."

SEC teams have had difficulty slowing down the stellar quarterbacks in their league this season, including Texas A&M's Johnny Manziel, Georgia's Aaron Murray and LSU's Zach Mettenberger.

Meanwhile, former Big 12 stars such as Baylor's Robert Griffin III, Oklahoma State's Brandon Weeden and Texas A&M's Ryan Tannehill currently are playing in the NFL after terrorizing the conference's defenses with their arms in years past.

Stoops has consistently pointed to Texas A&M, which left the Big 12 for the SEC prior to the 2012 season, then put up stellar offensive numbers in the SEC, as an example of the type of offense his Sooners had to face regularly in Big 12 play.

With Tannehill under center, the Aggies averaged 39.1 points and 490.2 yards per game as a member of the Big 12 in 2011. With Manziel taking snaps, Texas A&M averaged 44.5 points and 558.5 yards per game as a member of the SEC in 2012.

"I still don't know how (Texas) A&M was third in the country in total offense and scoring offense playing all those SEC defenses. I have no idea how that happened," Stoops said. "Oh, they got a quarterback. That's right."

 

[Longyac]

It is both spreading people out and pace. Go look at Bama's points against over the last few year. The teams that have been able to score more than 28 points on Bama are HUNH spreads. The HUHN spread is where almost all of Saban's losses at Bama came from once he got that program rolling.

The way to stop it is a mostly NFL caliber front seven with a DL that can pressure the QB by themselves and has LBs that can cover passing routes. Look at 2014 Texas v Rapylor. Who else has stopped a full strength Raylor offense? Lack of defense is what has cost Rapylor other than injured QBs.

 

[Longyac]

I wonder what if a Big XII defense can field a couple of lock down cb's would that be more important than having a good front four? Certainly it would increase the number of coverage sacks.

That isn't really how the Baylor spread works. Most of the yards are after the catch on quick out screens with enough bombs mixed in to keep defenses honest. It is about spreading guys out so much that one block, a successful rub route, or one missed tackle means it is off to the races. Over 50% of Baylor's TD are from outside the red zone.

You'd need more like 6 lock down corners to keep guys fresh as there are 3-4 WRs every play.

 

[outhereincali]

That isn't really how the Baylor spread works. Most of the yards are after the catch on quick out short routes with enough bombs mixed in to keep defenses honest. It is about spreading guys out so much that one block or one missed tackle means it is off to the races.

With the number of top defensive recruits we've signed the last two years do you think we can put a truly elite defense defense on the field by next year? You know compared to everyone else we've done very well against the Baylor spread, we've held them to 75 points the last three years. I'd like to see our defense against them over the next few years.

Who do you will be our best pass rusher this year?

Who do you think is our best defensive players are after Malik?

 

[Longyac]

By next year do you mean '16 or '17?

'16- no. DL- holes and depth from true freshmen. LB likely the same
'17- yes.

Best rusher? I'd put my money on Malik

2nd best defender? D. Davis.

 

[outhereincali]

By next year do you mean '16 or '17?

'16- no. DL- holes and depth from true freshmen. LB likely the same
'17- yes.

Best rusher? I'd put my money on Malik

2nd best defender? D. Davis.

No, I meant 2017 also.

 

[Longyac]

Ian Boyd did a two part article for Football Study Hall on how to defend the Veer and Shoot.

http://www.footballstudyhall.com/20...all-art-briles-lache-seastrunk-spread-offense

http://www.footballstudyhall.com/2013/5/23/4355556/baylor-offense-art-briles-defensive-gameplan

 

[Longyac]

For those wanting a better understanding of the new offense another Ian Boyd piece...

http://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2013/11/7/5073520/baylor-football-offense-art-briles-2013

 

[diadevic]

That isn't really how the Baylor spread works. Most of the yards are after the catch on quick out screens with enough bombs mixed in to keep defenses honest. It is about spreading guys out so much that one block, a successful rub route, or one missed tackle means it is off to the races. Over 50% of Baylor's TD are from outside the red zone.

You'd need more like 6 lock down corners to keep guys fresh as there are 3-4 WRs every play.

Absolutely. The year RG3 won the Heisman, his 40+ td passes AVERAGED OVER 35 YARDS PER PLAY. No cheapie fade routes from the 3 yard line.

 

[DocAg]

It's always a good discussion. I think the Big 12 does have pass rushers and some good athletes on D, but these offenses are such timing offenses and the ball is out so quickly that you aren't going to get to the quarterback that much. Even SEC defenses struggle with it. However, to me the only thing that separates the 2 conferences is that the SEC defenses might get a few more stops on the Big 12 teams and then control the clock. The SEC lines are massive up front and the Big 12 defenses are put together with speed and lack the size to stop the running games of the SEC making them just as hard to stop as the Big 12 offenses. So, it does come down to the defense and who can get the most stops and that is where I find the Big 12 coming up short. TCU has shown they can play with people on D the last few years though.

 

[Scholz]

It's always a good discussion.

...any time it's about conferences and not individual team accomplishments. Because that's all the aggys have.

...and that is where I find the Big 12 coming up short.

 

[oldschoolcat]

...any time it's about conferences and not individual team accomplishments. Because that's all the aggys have.

Says the guy with the very full, but dusty trophy case.

 

[bubba2023]

As opposed to the empty dusty case?

 

[oldschoolcat]

My grandma was hot back in the day too.....

 

[bubba2023]

My grandma was hot back in the day too.....

7 years ago your grandma was hot?