Economics of PSL's and Season Tickets

[Travis Galey]

My wife and I are seriously considering buying season tickets to the Las Vegas Raiders. Is it crazy to think it might not be a bad investment?

We live in DC so we might end up going to only one game a year. But I keep thinking that the resale value of those tickets will be higher than in most markets. I mean, even in years when the Raiders suck (which is most years), their home games will still be very attractive for out of town fans wanting to road trip to see their teams play and have a fun weekend.

If I end up selling seven out of the eight home games, I'm thinking I can cover the cost of the tickets as well as the PSL over a few years. Not to mention, if the team ever hosts playoff games. I would also have the right of first refusal for events at the stadium which offers me a chance to buy and re-sell those tickets as well.

Am I wrong?

 

[Big Bertha]

It's hard to say. Their division has some appealing teams in KC and Denver. Fans of those teams and some others will probably be planning weekends around those games while visiting Vegas. If they don't start winning though some dogs will be coming in each year. I'd think it would depend on what the PSL will cost. Tickets alone won't be cheap.

 

[Travis Galey]

It's hard to say. Their division has some appealing teams in KC and Denver. Fans of those teams and some others will probably be planning weekends around those games while visiting Vegas. If they don't start winning though some dogs will be coming in each year. I'd think it would depend on what the PSL will cost. Tickets alone won't be cheap.

Agreed. I also think, and failed to mention this, that are still plenty of Raiders fans in LA who will make the drive to the desert to see their team play.

 

[StrosBros]

I have never seen this be a good investment long term. Granted I am not an expert but PSLs and season tickets usually only make sense if you personally use them. I understand how Vegas could change the calculous on this, but still think it is a fairly decent sized gamble.

 

[HuffTex]

My wife and I are seriously considering buying season tickets to the Las Vegas Raiders. Is it crazy to think it might not be a bad investment?

We live in DC so we might end up going to only one game a year. But I keep thinking that the resale value of those tickets will be higher than in most markets. I mean, even in years when the Raiders suck (which is most years), their home games will still be very attractive for out of town fans wanting to road trip to see their teams play and have a fun weekend.

If I end up selling seven out of the eight home games, I'm thinking I can cover the cost of the tickets as well as the PSL over a few years. Not to mention, if the team ever hosts playoff games. I would also have the right of first refusal for events at the stadium which offers me a chance to buy and re-sell those tickets as well.

Am I wrong?

I'd start with just worrying about covering the costs, and you have made a pretty good case that is very doable....anything after that is gravy, I'd guess....

 

[TD TX TD VY]

Good in theory I guess as I agree there will always be demand for tix (at least until the novelty wears off for the home fans, if they aren't good). How much is the license and seats, and where are they located? How much will you have to sell each ticket for on average to break even in a few years?

 

[sean1187]

They’ll probably have more visiting fans than the rest of the nfl.

 

[CalHorn81]

I haven't seen the ticket prices, but they are probably very high since they have to amortize the $2B cost of the new stadium and make payroll. As such, it may be more difficult than you think to break even in the resale market.

 

[Travis Galey]

I have never seen this be a good investment long term. Granted I am not an expert but PSLs and season tickets usually only make sense if you personally use them. I understand how Vegas could change the calculous on this, but still think it is a fairly decent sized gamble.

Being a fairly decent gamble makes it appropriate for Vegas, I guess?

 

[Travis Galey]

Good in theory I guess as I agree there will always be demand for tix (at least until the novelty wears off for the home fans, if they aren't good). How much is the license and seats, and where are they located? How much will you have to sell each ticket for on average to break even in a few years?

A PSL for three seats is $12,500 each.
Season tickets are $2,500 each.
They would be at roughly the five yard line in the lower 100 section level of the bowl.

One other factor, these are PSL prices for three seats because they have sold out of their two and four seat options. Now, I can re-sell the PSL and season tickets for the third seat at any time. It may be hard to find a buyer for one seat, but I have to think that will happen at some point.

 

[BigDCuernolargo]

Two things to consider for that market:

1. pre-season- you still have to buy two games and you pay regular season game prices. You can even give those tickets away, depending on the opponent.

2. other events- do you get access to other events? Considering it’s Vegas, I see very little events, like concerts, etc in the new stadium. Also, lately, the ticket price is so high that these is very little money to make in these events.

finally, don’t expect to get super bowl or other high priced events. You should read the fine print.

i owe Jerryworld psl and know by experience.

 

[FrancoBevo]

if you can recover your investment before the novelty wears off and if you have money you have no better use for, sure, why not.

 

[Travis Galey]

Two things to consider for that market:

1. pre-season- you still have to buy two games and you pay regular season game prices. You can even give those tickets away, depending on the opponent.

2. other events- do you get access to other events? Considering it’s Vegas, I see very little events, like concerts, etc in the new stadium. Also, lately, the ticket price is so high that these is very little money to make in these events.

finally, don’t expect to get super bowl or other high priced events. You should read the fine print.

i owe Jerryworld psl and know by experience.

Thanks.

1) I'm assuming the season ticket price includes pre-season games, correct?
2) You do have access to other events. Well, by access, I mean I have a right to buy tickets to those events before they become public. I have to believe this stadium will see its fair share of events and shows. But as to your second point on the ticket prices, they will be at a premium.
3) Super Bowl tickets are their own thing. I'm not assuming I would ever get to buy those. However, home playoff games (if the Raiders ever get good enough to host any) will be worth more than the face value that I'll be able to buy them.

 

[MuggyMug]

I think there are better investments out there than that.

Buy tickets to the 1 game a year you want to go to, and you'll make out much better in the long run.

 

[HoustonHorn83]

A PSL for three seats is $12,500 each.
Season tickets are $2,500 each.
They would be at roughly the five yard line in the lower 100 section level of the bowl.

One other factor, these are PSL prices for three seats because they have sold out of their two and four seat options. Now, I can re-sell the PSL and season tickets for the third seat at any time. It may be hard to find a buyer for one seat, but I have to think that will happen at some point.

You'll need to sell each ticket for about $360 on average to break even on the ticket price, using StubHub-level seller fees. That seems like an iffy proposition for next season's home games against Buffalo, Miami, Tampa, and Indy (at least). There's almost no chance of recovering any significant portion of the PSL.

Maybe this would be a fun thing to dabble in. But if you're looking at this as an investment, look elsewhere.

 

[horninco]

If you’re buying the tickets because you want to go see the games and have your choice if seats, per se, and you can afford it then go for it


I wouldn’t expect you’d ever make your money back by selling most years.

maybe the inaugural season or second season? But when the newness wears off or if the team isn’t good (as is custom for the raiders) then you’re losing money.

 

[sodiumacetate]

A PSL for three seats is $12,500 each.
Season tickets are $2,500 each.
They would be at roughly the five yard line in the lower 100 section level of the bowl.

One other factor, these are PSL prices for three seats because they have sold out of their two and four seat options. Now, I can re-sell the PSL and season tickets for the third seat at any time. It may be hard to find a buyer for one seat, but I have to think that will happen at some point.

Even selling 7 of the 8 games, I don't know if you will cover 45000. I think it will be tough to sell all three each game, and are people willing to shell out more than 2000 per ticket on the secondary market?

 

[tmulanax]

As an owner of Cowboy PSLs and seats, I can say that I don’t make most of the games and don’t recoup my costs by selling my tickets. There are a lot of tickets available from other sellers for Dallas home games, and I expect there will be the same for LV games as well. There are only a few games that tickets go for over face value and those don’t offset the preseason games and below average games that go for less than face value. I sometimes end up giving my tickets away rather than selling them for well below face value.

 

[Yu Darvish]

http://www.southernsportstoday.com/financialhuddle/

@Grey_Gordon I'm posting this from my phone so it might not link. Nevertheless this comes from an interview between an Atlanta sports radio host and a financial advisor. This interview is dated December 11th. Scroll down and give it a listen. It's only about 5 minutes. They discuss your very topic.

 

[Bay Horn]

You'll need to sell each ticket for about $360 on average to break even on the ticket price, using StubHub-level seller fees. That seems like an iffy proposition for next season's home games against Buffalo, Miami, Tampa, and Indy (at least). There's almost no chance of recovering any significant portion of the PSL.

Maybe this would be a fun thing to dabble in. But if you're looking at this as an investment, look elsewhere.

Apologies if I am missing the math, but each seat is $15,000 per year ($2500 season tix + $12,500). My assumption is the PSL is a yearly fee. There are 10 games so is the cost basis not $1500 per seat per game? You plan on attending one game -- so the remaining 9 games would need to sell for $1667 to break even.

So $45,000 upfront to sell to out-of-town guests. Again, I am screwed up on the math? I would imagine that the PSL has a term and, if it is like the financial arrangement for Jerryworld, you are personally liable for the note on a 30 year term. BTW, the market is awash in Cowboys tix.

In my calculations, I did not add the StubHub fee that runs an additional 15% (minimum $37.50 on a breakeven ticket fee transaction). The three tickets also means you are going to burn a single. If you want to attend a game, just buy a ticket off the secondary market and go as that is a bunch of money to tie up on a fickle product -- especially after Year 1. Again, apologies that I am off. NOTE: I was an out-of-town season ticket holder for both the Cowboys and Texas Football -- dropped both and has not impacted me in the least. Also saved me the pain when I could not give the tix away.

 

[lhk04a]

I know I plan on attending when the cowboys visit LV

 

[Travis Galey]

Apologies if I am missing the math, but each seat is $15,000 per year ($2500 season tix + $12,500). My assumption is the PSL is a yearly fee. There are 10 games so is the cost basis not $1500 per seat per game? You plan on attending one game -- so the remaining 9 games would need to sell for $1667 to break even.

So $45,000 upfront to sell to out-of-town guests. Again, I am screwed up on the math? I would imagine that the PSL has a term and, if it is like the financial arrangement for Jerryworld, you are personally liable for the note on a 30 year term. BTW, the market is awash in Cowboys tix.

In my calculations, I did not add the StubHub fee that runs an additional 15% (minimum $37.50 on a breakeven ticket fee transaction). The three tickets also means you are going to burn a single. If you want to attend a game, just buy a ticket off the secondary market and go as that is a bunch of money to tie up on a fickle product -- especially after Year 1. Again, apologies that I am off. NOTE: I was an out-of-town season ticket holder for both the Cowboys and Texas Football -- dropped both and has not impacted me in the least. Also saved me the pain when I could not give the tix away.

The PSL is a one-time fee. There are literally only 19 seats left in the entire stadium for sale. I'm pretty sure that if I had thought about this back in November when they first went on sale that I probably would have pulled the trigger for two cheaper seats. As it is, all that's left are lower bowl seats in the endzone corners.

So I would be looking at three PSL's worth $12,500 each (one time fee) as well as season tickets at $5,970 for all three seats combined (due each year).

 

[Travis Galey]

I know I plan on attending when the cowboys visit LV

Maybe I'll sell you my tickets.

 

[Bay Horn]

The PSL is a one-time fee. There are literally only 19 seats left in the entire stadium for sale. I'm pretty sure that if I had thought about this back in November when they first went on sale that I probably would have pulled the trigger for two cheaper seats. As it is, all that's left are lower bowl seats in the endzone corners.

So I would be looking at three PSL's worth $12,500 each (one time fee) as well as season tickets at $5,970 for all three seats combined (due each year).

Thanks -- that is markedly different than the JerryWorld PSL.

But over 10 years -- it is $125 per seat per game (100 games) factored into the Return Calculation. So $431.25 break even per ticket over 10 years (not factoring in the yearly price increase and attendance). Can you really sell a 5 yardline ticket for $500 to break even? I am off on the one game/owner attendance which drives the breakeven number higher and the probability that the preseason games require severe discounting to move.

 

[sodiumacetate]

The PSL is a one-time fee. There are literally only 19 seats left in the entire stadium for sale. I'm pretty sure that if I had thought about this back in November when they first went on sale that I probably would have pulled the trigger for two cheaper seats. As it is, all that's left are lower bowl seats in the endzone corners.

So I would be looking at three PSL's worth $12,500 each (one time fee) as well as season tickets at $5,970 for all three seats combined (due each year).

Oh ok... I thought the PSL was a yearly fee like Foundation donations.

 

[eaglehorn]

My wife and I are seriously considering buying season tickets to the Las Vegas Raiders. Is it crazy to think it might not be a bad investment?

We live in DC so we might end up going to only one game a year. But I keep thinking that the resale value of those tickets will be higher than in most markets. I mean, even in years when the Raiders suck (which is most years), their home games will still be very attractive for out of town fans wanting to road trip to see their teams play and have a fun weekend.

If I end up selling seven out of the eight home games, I'm thinking I can cover the cost of the tickets as well as the PSL over a few years. Not to mention, if the team ever hosts playoff games. I would also have the right of first refusal for events at the stadium which offers me a chance to buy and re-sell those tickets as well.

Am I wrong?

As a PSL holder in Atlanta, I'd recommend against it.

• Special Event tickets are hit or miss in-terms of profit
• NFL demand is contingent on the performance of the team(s)
• A lot of work managing what will be in most cases breaking even or even losing money on per event basis
  
• Quality of your PSL matters as well. Nosebleeds, forget about it.

Sure you might profit $200 on a playoff game or a Tay Tay concert but it's offset by that Jacksonville game in week 11 or that Monsters of Rock concert that didn't quite muster the demand.

My buddies and I have two PSLs that we're still trying to "payoff" from re-sell profits entering year 4, may get it done this year but what started as a team effort is all on the shoulders of one guy now. PITA.

Edit: 3 seat PSL is even riskier. Most people travel in pairs.

 

[JHorns2015]

As an owner of Cowboy PSLs and seats, I can say that I don’t make most of the games and don’t recoup my costs by selling my tickets. There are a lot of tickets available from other sellers for Dallas home games, and I expect there will be the same for LV games as well. There are only a few games that tickets go for over face value and those don’t offset the preseason games and below average games that go for less than face value. I sometimes end up giving my tickets away rather than selling them for well below face value.

Where are your seats? I have two pair in different parts of the stadium and the only time I have ever had trouble selling for above face value was the year Romo got hurt in 2015 and they were out of it early. Every other year I list my seats for well above face value. If they sell, great. If they dont, I am "forced" to attend. They usually sell and I am able to cover my pre-season costs and attend a couple for "free".

 

[JHorns2015]

Thanks -- that is markedly different than the JerryWorld PSL.

But over 10 years -- it is $125 per seat per game (100 games) factored into the Return Calculation. So $431.25 break even per ticket over 10 years (not factoring in the yearly price increase and attendance). Can you really sell a 5 yardline ticket for $500 to break even? I am off on the one game/owner attendance which drives the breakeven number higher and the probability that the preseason games require severe discounting to move.

Sounds like the Raiders PSLs are set up exactly the same as in Dallas actually. You pay a one time PSL fee up front. The only way it would be a yearly PSL expense is if you "finance" the PSL through the team. If you pay the PSL up front, the only yearly expense are the tickets themselves. The $5,970 for 3 seats averages out to $199 a ticket per game (8 regular season and 2 preseason). As others have mentioned, I doubt you ever come close to getting $200 a ticket for the pre-season except maybe the first season when people want to go check out the new stadium.

Also, my experience has been that sets of 3 are actually a good selling point. Its hard to find as usually people sell in pairs or quads. So when a group needs just 3, they are almost always out of luck or forced to buy 4. I would search Stub Hub and SeatGeek and compare the prices for 2 seats vs 3 seats for different games.

 

[Travis Galey]

Thanks -- that is markedly different than the JerryWorld PSL.

But over 10 years -- it is $125 per seat per game (100 games) factored into the Return Calculation. So $431.25 break even per ticket over 10 years (not factoring in the yearly price increase and attendance). Can you really sell a 5 yardline ticket for $500 to break even? I am off on the one game/owner attendance which drives the breakeven number higher and the probability that the preseason games require severe discounting to move.

By my calculations, at $5,970 for three tickets, covering eight home games (not including pre-season because they are usually hard to sell), each game comes out to $248.75. If I attend one game then it's $285 a ticket just to break even.

I get that it's hard to sell tickets for an average NFL game when the home team sucks. I guess I'm just gambling that the Vegas factor changes the calculus.

 

[Travis Galey]

Sounds like the Raiders PSLs are set up exactly the same as in Dallas actually. You pay a one time PSL fee up front. The only way it would be a yearly PSL expense is if you "finance" the PSL through the team. If you pay the PSL up front, the only yearly expense are the tickets themselves. The $5,970 for 3 seats averages out to $199 a ticket per game (8 regular season and 2 preseason). As others have mentioned, I doubt you ever come close to getting $200 a ticket for the pre-season except maybe the first season when people want to go check out the new stadium.

Also, my experience has been that sets of 3 are actually a good selling point. Its hard to find as usually people sell in pairs or quads. So when a group needs just 3, they are almost always out of luck or forced to buy 4. I would search Stub Hub and SeatGeek and compare the prices for 2 seats vs 3 seats for different games.

I had never thought of three seats being an advantage. I was actually thinking I would sell one PSL to someone at some point (realizing it may be hard to sell a single PSL).

How much do you think Cowboys tickets in the lower bowl around the endzone corners go for?

 

[Bay Horn]

Sounds like the Raiders PSLs are set up exactly the same as in Dallas actually. You pay a one time PSL fee up front. The only way it would be a yearly PSL expense is if you "finance" the PSL through the team. If you pay the PSL up front, the only yearly expense are the tickets themselves. The $5,970 for 3 seats averages out to $199 a ticket per game (8 regular season and 2 preseason). As others have mentioned, I doubt you ever come close to getting $200 a ticket for the pre-season except maybe the first season when people want to go check out the new stadium.

Also, my experience has been that sets of 3 are actually a good selling point. Its hard to find as usually people sell in pairs or quads. So when a group needs just 3, they are almost always out of luck or forced to buy 4. I would search Stub Hub and SeatGeek and compare the prices for 2 seats vs 3 seats for different games.

The amount of the PSLs seems different -- not the process. To buy the same four Tix I had at Texas Stadium was going to be $1,000,000 over a 30 year term. The PSl had personal liability, if financed, and a high rate.

My point, the $15,000 PSL for the Raider stadium at the 5 yardline seems less than JerryWorld. Again, for an out of town owner that is dependent on moving tickets to make back funds -- a lot of work and high secondary market tix.

 

[drano21]

My wife and I are seriously considering buying season tickets to the Las Vegas Raiders. Is it crazy to think it might not be a bad investment?

We live in DC so we might end up going to only one game a year. But I keep thinking that the resale value of those tickets will be higher than in most markets. I mean, even in years when the Raiders suck (which is most years), their home games will still be very attractive for out of town fans wanting to road trip to see their teams play and have a fun weekend.

If I end up selling seven out of the eight home games, I'm thinking I can cover the cost of the tickets as well as the PSL over a few years. Not to mention, if the team ever hosts playoff games. I would also have the right of first refusal for events at the stadium which offers me a chance to buy and re-sell those tickets as well.

Am I wrong?

We have cowboys psl and season tickets and it's a great investment.
However, a couple things...in the 3 stadiums I've owned seats, I've never been offered first right to those seats for other events. Make sure that's the case.
As far as making money, it's very easy to sell tickets if you're willing to handle things as far as communication in a thorough way. I prefer to avoid sites that charge fees, but just my opinion.
Agree with the guy that said more away fans will likely go...probably the case. Not bad to post them in their markets as well.

 

[Travis Galey]

Just for information...there are only 19 seats left in the entire stadium. That's why they have only sets of 3 left and a few singles.

 

[HoustonHorn83]

By my calculations, at $5,970 for three tickets, covering eight home games (not including pre-season because they are usually hard to sell), each game comes out to $248.75. If I attend one game then it's $285 a ticket just to break even.

I get that it's hard to sell tickets for an average NFL game when the home team sucks. I guess I'm just gambling that the Vegas factor changes the calculus.

If the seats cost you $2,500 apiece, that's $7,500. Spread out over 8 regular-season games, with three seats, that's $312 a seat. To take home $312 a seat, you'll need to sell them for $360 (which means the buyer is paying right around $400) per seat. There's no way you're getting close to $400 per seat for at least half the home games. And you're also in the hole over $35,000 for the PSL.

 

[Travis Galey]

We have cowboys psl and season tickets and it's a great investment.
However, a couple things...in the 3 stadiums I've owned seats, I've never been offered first right to those seats for other events. Make sure that's the case.
As far as making money, it's very easy to sell tickets if you're willing to handle things as far as communication in a thorough way. I prefer to avoid sites that charge fees, but just my opinion.
Agree with the guy that said more away fans will likely go...probably the case. Not bad to post them in their markets as well.

I talked to the sales agent this afternoon. She was saying for other events, we would be offered open seats in any part of the stadium before they went on sale, not our particular seats. For playoff games we would have our seats.