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OT: Lil' Kim and North Korea Question for the group

clob94

Well-Known Member
Aug 25, 2014
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So................. anybody nervous?


Btw MM I do not consider this to be a political thread because here is my goal----

There are people in this lobby that were alive during the Cuban missile crisis and I'm curious of their opinion because this is the closest thing to it that we've seen in my lifetime. As a child of the mid to late 70s and 80s, I remember the cloud if the USSR hanging over this country and the Mutually Assured Destruction the we as a nation shared with the Russians. I always felt safe because I some how rationalized in my mind that because the Russians loved playing chess, they would see a nuclear strike as ultimately a bad chess move, and they would never do that.

However, this dude Lil' Kim doesn't strike me as a chess player..... he seems a bit unpredictable.

So what say ye elder statesman of this lobby?

Are you worried about Kim going full r*tard and pressing the button on Guam? Are you dusting out your parents old bomb shelter? Fully stocked on Vienna sausages and spam?
 
No, the fight with N Korea is not what bothers me. It's a war with China just like Korean war 1. This time I don't think that our European neighbors will be helping. Best to get this done fast and with minimal collateral damage to China. If we want to fight China, we should put our economy on as equal footing as possible in terms of small business competitiveness. The large multinational corps aren't going to help the USA. I do my best to buy made in USA (non-union). Best products the world has ever seen.
 
I'm worried when you have two off the cuff type personalities in political positions. That's all I have to say about the whole situation.
 
Hopefully it's just a twitter war and not the real deal. China's reluctance to help out with putting North Korea back in line has me pretty skeptical about where they stand and their true intentions regarding the U.S.
 
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Time to take out that fat little bastard.
Oh I think we all truly want to bomb the sheet out of him, but to what end?

We live in a world where if you break it, you buy it. Can you imagine what it would cost to fix that sheet hole?
 
ok...here is the deal as I see it....Flat out, we do not want to bomb NK no matter what....well...unless it is absolutely necessary.

Big difference with Cuban missle crisis. At that time we had nukes in Turkey(maybe still do) and that was a direct threat to the USSR. They wanted to put nukes in Cuba to "level the table"...We called the bluff and did not allow it. USSR gave in because they knew they would be destroyed and frankly, did not trust their ability to strike back. In those days, most nukes would be delivered by bomber not ICBM's They made the calcultions and determined it was not worth the risk. That does not apply to North Korea.

You have to understand that to a citizen in North Korea they believe they are the mightiest military power on the face of the earth.If you do not understand that, you will never grasp this issue.Kim is not just surrounded by yes men, he is surrounded by terrified yes men. When Kim enters a room, all in attendance must clap...and the first to quit will be arrested. I am not joking. When you add to this that arrest most likely means death, then you see that no one will challenge him.

Not even the Chinese can reason with him. They like him in power only because it offers a buffer zone on his border.

S Korea has one of the best, most effective army's in the world....but they are out numbered

Dont worry about Trump being a loose cannon. Trump is Ghandi compared to Kim.

Old Chinese curse....."May you live in interesting times"
 
About a decade ago, I lived in SK for 3 years. Taught at a couple of universities. And I've had friendships with Koreans since the late 80's. (That doesn't make me an expert on Korea, of course.)

How South Koreans react to the constant threats
For English teachers in Korea, it's fairly universal to be shocked at how calm the SKs are. They're more worried about what the USA might do, than NK or China. Especially since the fire & fury remark, reportedly.

The SKs have been under constant threat since the Korean War "ended." Occasionally, a military incident occurs. DPRK troops might shell a military boat on patrol, or a SK island. The SKs just grin and bear it, pretty much. They protest. Affected families are outraged. Nothing much happens.

The Kims have always tried to give off the sense of being unpredictable, but generally they've used the threats at their disposal to try to wangle assistance from the Chinese and, if need be, from the international community. They've been predictably "unpredictable".

Why NK threatens
NK can get oil & food from China since they pose a threat to China. China is overpopulated, as you know, and NK is a source of refugees. Did you know that in the region of China near Korea, that Korean is widely spoken? In those areas, there is a wide mix of Koreans, Chinese, and those who share both ancestries & perhaps speak both languages, or even an odd mix of the two. (You see the same thing in Europe, in Texas, etc.)

China does NOT want little brother DPRK to fail, not just because it would be embarrassing for another communist government to go belly up, but because how it would hurt China. It'd mean a HUGE influx of refugees. They don't want more NKs sneaking across the Yalu River into China. So they don't want another war in Korea, either, nor a regime change. China wants a stable DPRK to control the border.

So, it pays NK to be constantly making threats, and occasionally making good on the threats in a small way.

Guam, though, is no small thing. Kim JU knows if he attacked U.S. interests in any serious way -- and not just the small skirmish -- that any U.S. president would respond. He doesn't want that. What he does want is to be able to threaten our cities, with the same threat we possess in our arsenal against his cities.

What can NK do, in terms of missiles and nuclear ICBMs?
At this point, NK's testing shows the state of their missile technology. They have an ICBM that sometimes works, despite USA hackers, its immaturity, and the fact that they transport these liquid propelled ICBMs over bumpy roads. So far, they've only tested missiles in the East Sea (Sea of Japan). That suggests that their accuracy wasn't good enough to test near Guam, or they're afraid of the consequences.

Now, however, they threaten to lob 4 (unarmed) missiles over Japan, to splash down 30-40 km from Guam. That's new, and suggests their accuracy is improving, and/or their economic desperation is increasing, and/or they find it advantageous to test this POTUS. It's a risk for them. They'd be embarrassed if those missiles hit elsewhere, or if they actually hit Guam, or if they failed to get all 4 ICBMs to launch and re-enter.

We know about their nuclear yield, but not about miniaturization. Was the disco-globe that KJU posed with real? That would fit on an Hwasong-14 ICBM.

Why do so many South Koreans oppose missile defense?
Many South Koreans oppose THAAD. Don't you think they'd appreciate the extra protection, or at least the chance of protection? That was my reaction.

There are some reasons why they feel this way, though:
  • It could provoke an arms race. Let's say you're NK or China or even Russia, and you're concerned that THAAD is reducing your missile threat. What are you gonna do? Make more missiles. Bombard with even more.
  • THAAD could lead to a false sense of security. It's only been tested by the USA, under careful conditions. How many failed tests have been swept under the rug? Has it ever been shown to be effective against NK's arsenal? Not yet.
  • Anyone living near a THAAD installation will be under additional threat from traditional artillery, etc.
  • The Chinese could react in negative ways: a trade war, a JFK-style blockade, or even intervention.
I'm neutral on THAAD, by the way. Personally, if I were still there, I'd prefer the possible protection. But I can see why it could provoke China and end up harming SK.
 
Well, threatening to hit Guam with four missiles tells me a few things.

1. He firing a spread-- remember the old WWII submarine movies where the captain would be looking throw the periscope and guessing what coordinated to launch with? Then had fire a "spread" of torpedoes to increase his chances of hitting a target. This was before "smart" technology was invented that could guide the torpedoes. This tells me that Kim doesn't know where his birds will land.
2. He now has 16 deliverable nukes. Wasting 4 on Guam seems odd. So either he has more than we know about (16) or he's trying to make a point about Guam.
3. Anyone in the military with any sort of security clearance knows why Guam is such an important base. It has nothing to do with bombers, as our bombers can take off from Missouri and fly anywhere in the world--- now back in the day, Guam was an important spot because bombers could only fly so far. But now with air to air refueling, Guam isn't important for that reason. There s something else there that's very sensitive and VERY important to the DOD and intelligence agencies.
4. The last nuke test they did inside of the mountain in Sept of 16 was a nuke that was the size of a tractor trailer rig. It was BIG. Somehow in less than a year, they've miraculously managed to defy science and miniturize their war heads. Think they had help? Of course they did. Anybody want to guess who helped them? It ain't China.

Honestly I think it goes down like this:

There will be talk, bluster and threats made. Someone inside the DOD or state dept will quietly send a message over to them and say, "Dear Sir, this is a zero sum game for you. We will leave you alone if you keep to yourself. Sincerely, Uranium 235"

I think we just have to get used to their being another nuclear power in the world.
Russia
United States
China
India
Brits
Pakistan
France
Israel

"Best" Korea
 
Nice read HRU. I was stationed in Korea(Inchon) in 1971. We would hear fire fights once a month or so as NK would try and infiltrate and the S Koreans would killem. Of course we never heard of any NK success.
 
Nice read HRU. I was stationed in Korea(Inchon) in 1971. We would hear fire fights once a month or so as NK would try and infiltrate and the S Koreans would killem. Of course we never heard of any NK success.
Fire fights?
 
I'd love nothing more than to swoop in, destroy that fat mushroom headed clown and rescue everyone from their "work camps."
Problem is there's too much at stake. Seoul is a stones throw away and surely would be nuked. China, Russia, Iran could possibly unite to take us on in ww3. There are no good options here.

So, do nothing and hope he's bluffing to get more charity like what Bill Clinton gave the while they continue advancing their nukes? Or do we hit all their high value targets in 1 fell swoop & hope we don't ignight ww3?

Something to ask yourself....Knowing what we know now, would you have attacked Japan to prevent Pearl Harbor? Glad the decision isn't my burden for sure.
 
Well we are moving to total nuclear proliferation throughout the world... today nork - tomorrow Iran, Saudi, and on and on til the last domino falls....

3 When He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come 4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

It's making more sense everyday.
 
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Clob? You're a bit off, my friend. The DPRK hasn't threatened to hit Guam with nuclear missiles (or any missiles).

What they've told us is this:
  • The location of a missile test target
    • A ring around Guam
    • Between 30 and 40 km, so they're shooting for 35 km, give or take 3.1 miles.
  • The number of missiles
    • 4, not 3 or 5 or 2
  • The time frame
    • By mid-August
This is a missile test, so that means unarmed missiles, presumably.

They've never tested outside the East Sea, AFAIK. Never sent a missile over Japan or SK. [Edit: They did use a Taepongdo-2 to try to put a satellite in orbit, but that technology isn't believed to be useful for nuclear ICBM.] They HAVE, however, tested near the coast of Japan, which was bold.

Many of their tests have been failures. Under Pres. Obama, our hacking program was accelerated, and they had a lot of missile test failures.

This Guam threat is extremely bold. In the past, they've mostly tested a single missile at a time. Only recently have they been able to send multiple missiles at once. So to specify that 30-40 km ring, and the number of missiles, and a deadline... and to do it outside the East Sea, that's bold.

We don't know how many "deliverable nukes" they have. The Chinese estimated that they had 20 in 2015, and double that in 2016. So, who knows. 50-80 now? But the Guam thing wouldn't be using a nuclear warhead, anyway. It's just another test threat, despite their colorful language. Hyperbole is the lingua franca of insane people trying to seem unpredictable & dangerous.
 
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I'd love nothing more than to swoop in, destroy that fat mushroom headed clown and rescue everyone from their "work camps."
Problem is there's too much at stake. Seoul is a stones throw away and surely would be nuked. China, Russia, Iran could possibly unite to take us on in ww3. There are no good options here.

So, do nothing and hope he's bluffing to get more charity like what Bill Clinton gave the while they continue advancing their nukes? Or do we hit all their high value targets in 1 fell swoop & hope we don't ignight ww3?

Something to ask yourself....Knowing what we know now, would you have attacked Japan to prevent Pearl Harbor? Glad the decision isn't my burden for sure.
Don't forget the global economic devastation that would occur with any renewed warfare in Korea. Korean LCD panels, smartphones, automobiles, ship building, etc. All the items manufactured in China. The cost of the war to the USA. If those Chinese ports are damaged or even delayed... If shipping lanes in the Pacific are threatened.

No one wants this (war in Korea), and that's what gives KJU power. That and his missile/nuclear program are why he can act like an infant.
 
Clob? You're a bit off, my friend. The DPRK hasn't threatened to hit Guam with nuclear missiles (or any missiles).

What they've told us is this:
  • The location of a missile test target
    • A ring around Guam
    • Between 30 and 40 km, so they're shooting for 35 km, give or take 3.1 miles.
  • The number of missiles
    • 4, not 3 or 5 or 2
  • The time frame
    • By mid-August
This is a missile test, so that means unarmed missiles, presumably.

They've never tested outside the East Sea, AFAIK. Never sent a missile over Japan or SK. [Edit: They did use a Taepongdo-2 to try to put a satellite in orbit, but that technology isn't believed to be useful for nuclear ICBM.] They HAVE, however, tested near the coast of Japan, which was bold.

Many of their tests have been failures. Under Pres. Obama, our hacking program was accelerated, and they had a lot of missile test failures.

This Guam threat is extremely bold. In the past, they've mostly tested a single missile at a time. Only recently have they been able to send multiple missiles at once. So to specify that 30-40 km ring, and the number of missiles, and a deadline... and to do it outside the East Sea, that's bold.

We don't know how many "deliverable nukes" they have. The Chinese estimated that they had 20 in 2015, and double that in 2016. So, who knows. 50-80 now? But the Guam thing wouldn't be using a nuclear warhead, anyway. It's just another test threat, despite their colorful language. Hyperbole is the lingua franca of insane people trying to seem unpredictable & dangerous.

What you are saying is correct but what if, just what if, 1 of those test missiles is live?
We all know that n Korea never lies about anything on a daily basis.
How would ANY other rival country react if we lobbed missiles within 40 km of their territory? How about a territory that is primarily a military facility?
This whole situation is a catch 22.
 
Is it possible, that to avoid a cataclysmic scenario, we can extend an olive branch and offer to move Baylor's football program to North Korea for Kim Jong Un's personal enjoyment? It doesn't hurt to ask plus we'd be dealing with 2 evil regimes in a positive way.
 
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What you are saying is correct but what if, just what if, 1 of those test missiles is live?
We all know that n Korea never lies about anything on a daily basis.
How would ANY other rival country react if we lobbed missiles within 40 km of their territory? How about a territory that is primarily a military facility?
This whole situation is a catch 22.
See, that is what I was thinking. Follow me with this scenario:

Best Korea launched 4 missiles over Japanese air space-- violation #1. My Air Force buddies tell me that once an ICBM is launched, it takes less than 25 minutes to impact anywhere in the world due to leaving the earth atmosphere and re-entering over the target. It takes us 12 minutes after the launch to calculate where impact will be based on trajectory.
NOW, let's say 3 of the missile are headed toward the coast of Guam, as he promised. But one has a flight path toward the coast of cali, hawaii or Anchorage. We would have 13 minutes to decide if it was armed, or a empty. It takes 2 minutes for the president to enter launch codes into the football, give the order and have the order carried out by subs, or silos. That means we'd have just 11 minutes to decide if it were a dud missile, or actually nuke tipped.
The prez and the joint chiefs decide to launch a retaliatory strike. If it's from a missile sub or "boomer", it would take only 5-7 minutes for our birds to reach their targets which means our trident II missiles would hit before their missile do because our subs are parked right off their coast line.
So we nuke them, then their missile lands off the coast of cali and it turns out it was empty-- no nuke on board.

Now we've nuked Best Korea because they bluffed us. Immediately, international heads of states would be scrambling to choose whom to side with. Best Korea could simply say, "It was just a missile test and the missile went further than intended and the big bully nuked us!". We end up being public enemy #1 and Best Korea gains global sympathy.
 
dammit!....we aint gonna do no nukin' of N Korea, so just forget it......not gonna happen.This test "threat" will be non nuke missiles. They dont have enough nukes to waste any on Guam. I suspect they would have a great deal of trouble hitting Guam on a clear day. They simply do not have a sophisticated missile program yet'

and yes...Clob, I said firefight. That may not be what it actually was but when we heard that boom-boom-boom of 50 cal fire and they brought in and laid out 8 bodies on G-ramp that they claimed were N Korean sabotuers I called it a fire fight.
 
dammit!....we aint gonna do no nukin' of N Korea, so just forget it......not gonna happen.This test "threat" will be non nuke missiles. They dont have enough nukes to waste any on Guam. I suspect they would have a great deal of trouble hitting Guam on a clear day. They simply do not have a sophisticated missile program yet'

and yes...Clob, I said firefight. That may not be what it actually was but when we heard that boom-boom-boom of 50 cal fire and they brought in and laid out 8 bodies on G-ramp that they claimed were N Korean sabotuers I called it a fire fight.
Damn! Well the reason I ask is because you see photos and hear stories about how tight border security is and the DMZ zone with land mines everywhere. I'm just thinking of the balls it takes to shoot at each other from a freaking DMZ.
 
Most of the publicized skirmishes (Wikipedia link) are on water, I think, not land. There are a number of disputed islands that SK occupies but NK claims. Similar with Japan, China, etc. All the smaller islands in that area of the world are disputed, pretty much. NK shells an island, a couple of SKs die, or no one dies, and nothing happens for 1-5 years. At least, publicly.

NK is supposed to have tunnels under the DMZ, so there's that. Build a wall, or mine field, and they just tunnel under. Same in Gaza, S. California, etc.

"Best" Korea? First time I heard that. There's Korea (both), RoK / SK, DPRK / NK, but no Best Korea. OK, apparently there's a meme for that. :rolleyes:

G-Fresh... As for NK launching an armed missile during a test of multiple unarmed missiles, or even announcing plans for a missile test and then using that event to launch armed missiles instead... of course, that's always a possibility. They've never done it before, but...

Clob's nuclear football scenario is a bit unlikely, IMO. With NK, we're not talking about M.A.D. with Russia. So there's no need to launch nukes at NK until they've launched one at us -- that is, it explodes. We can wait. The exception might be if an ICBM were heading to D.C. In that case, I could imagine the POTUS acting in kind, while the missile is in the air.

Also, NK is NEVER going to get "global sympathy." Not in our lifetimes, anyway. They'll get some token sympathy from China, for sure, plus sworn enemies of the USA like Iran or Syria. We're talking about unanimous security council decisions against the DPRK, and near-unanimous in the entire UN. The world isn't going to jump on their bandwagon very easily.

Kim Jong Un would LOVE, though, to get evidence that supports the NK view that the USA is the scourge of the world. So, if they can provoke us into doing something monumentally stupid and unnecessary, to turn world opinion against us, then sure, I'm guessing they'd be happy for some of their countrymen to suffer nuclear fallout to do that. That'd be giving them a ton of propaganda fuel.
 
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exactly right HRU. The skirmishes are on water around the islands off Korea. At the time I was stationed on Wol Mi Do....the island where McArthur made his astonishing landing.(you simply cannot imagine 35 ft tides until you see them). If you look at the map you will be amazed how close Seoul and Inchon are to the DMZ. Almost in shelling distance....just not quite. As HRU said....any attack, one way or another likely would not go through the DMZ. Then again....remember how damned easy Swartzcoff went through the heavily mined border Sadam built up.
 
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exactly right HRU. The skirmishes are on water around the islands off Korea. At the time I was stationed on Wol Mi Do....the island where McArthur made his astonishing landing.(you simply cannot imagine 35 ft tides until you see them). If you look at the map you will be amazed how close Seoul and Inchon are to the DMZ. Almost in shelling distance....just not quite. As HRU said....any attack, one way or another likely would not go through the DMZ. Then again....remember how damned easy Swartzcoff went through the heavily mined border Sadam built up.

This is why if you use a nuke on NK you are pretty much condemning SK/Seoul to the fallout.

Hats off to HRU for knowing China's fear of NK refugees being the main reason they haven't 'removed' the Kim family when most think it is about maintaining the buffer zone. That China is involved in the last UN sanctions is a huge change.
 
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Am I the only one that thinks it quite odd that China and Russia went along with the sanctions? That's almost tacit approval by them for us to escalate this into a military issue. They're never on our side on anything but they are on this??

Why would they want that? Could it be that they're both chomping at the bit to see our capabilities with regard to missile defense?

If we launch a pre-emptive attack, NK will launch a missile or three and we'll knock those out of the sky almost immediately. And Russia and China will be watching and taking notes.

That may not be the reason but I def get the feeling both those countries wouldn't mind seeing a limited war between us and NK. It's very odd.

Personally it would be a lot more fun to see us pepper his country with leaflets of his head photoshopped on the body of some dude with a tiny deek!
 
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I think going along with the sanctions was more of a warning to NK than tacit approval for US actions.
 
When they had the big parade showing off their missles tanks and army we could have wiped them out right then game over. Kim and his regime would have been eliminated or we could have asassinated him by now and let everyone speculate who did it. Just a few ideas.
 
Am I the only one that thinks it quite odd that China and Russia went along with the sanctions? That's almost tacit approval by them for us to escalate this into a military issue. They're never on our side on anything but they are on this??

Why would they want that? Could it be that they're both chomping at the bit to see our capabilities with regard to missile defense?

If we launch a pre-emptive attack, NK will launch a missile or three and we'll knock those out of the sky almost immediately. And Russia and China will be watching and taking notes.

That may not be the reason but I def get the feeling both those countries wouldn't mind seeing a limited war between us and NK. It's very odd.

Personally it would be a lot more fun to see us pepper his country with leaflets of his head photoshopped on the body of some dude with a tiny deek!
You make some good points and I have come to feel pretty much the same. NK is the guinea pig.
 
You make some good points and I have come to feel pretty much the same. NK is the guinea pig.
Guinea pig is one name, I prefer "useful idiot". But you are correct. The reason I call North Korea, "Best" Korea is because Lil' Kim constantly espouses about North Korea is the best of the two Korea's. Sarcasm.

Honestly I don't think anything will come of Kim or his lawn darts.
 
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NOW, let's say 3 of the missile are headed toward the coast of Guam, as he promised. But one has a flight path toward the coast of cali, hawaii or Anchorage. We would have 13 minutes to decide if it was armed, or a empty. It takes 2 minutes for the president to enter launch codes into the football, give the order and have the order carried out by subs, or silos. That means we'd have just 11 minutes to decide if it were a dud missile, or actually nuke tipped.

Why do you think we'd only have these short windows in which to make a decision? This isn't the USSR launching an incapacitating first strike aimed at eliminating our ICBM arsenal.

Edit: HornsRuleU beat me to it.
 
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