Reasons why the Big XII sucks

[outhereincali]

I don't like to admit it but these recruiting rankings do matter. You see all these SEC teams in the top 25 and you want to think they have tunnel vision. But the truth of the matter is right now the SEC is 6/2 in bowl games and if TN wins on Friday they'll be 7/2 going into the LSU/Clemson game. Bowl season is the benchmark when you rank conferences at the end of the season. Most of us are glad that AL is not in the playoffs this year but instead of AL the best team in the country is another SEC team.

Even their 2nd and 3rd tier teams win their bowl games. It's because of their recruiting. Their Big 4 always finishes high in the rankings. But those 2nd and 3rd tier teams out recruit the other Big XII schools and that's why schools like the cow college beat someone like OSU in bowl games. And those schools also have better coaches then you see in the Big XII. You think Gus Malzahn isn't a better coach than the other Big XII coaches?

Now let's look at the Big XII. For the last 10 years other than TX and OK no Big XII school has finished in the top 25 in recruiting rankings. Not one. That's why we lose most of our big non con games and bowl games and the SEC win theirs. We had 4 new coaches this year. I think Klieman at KSU has potential. And because of his ad Kirby Puckett I think Matt Wells might turn out to be a good coach. But I don't think the other 2, Brown and Miles are going to make it. Rhule looks like he's a keeper. But Patterson needs to retire soon and in a couple of years so will Gundy.

The talent differential between OK and LSU is almost sad. Baylor had a great season and like OK they played a better team, another SEC team but dyk that as of now they're last in the Big XII in recruiting? They're going for a for a big haul on NSD 2 we'll see. And speaking of Baylor that boy Charlie Brewer needs to retire. No other player on that team did more than CB in getting Baylor where they got this year. Shake your head and wonder why the SEC and the little 10 have better recruiters coaches than our conference.

The final insult for the Big XII in 2019 is that the Pac XII was better than us this year. They also have 4 schools that finish in the top 20 every year in recruiting. They also have talented coaches. Justin Wilcox, Melvin Tucker, and Jimmy Lake are going to be great coaches. Oh and don't forget old Herm Edwards. And most of them finished ahead of the other Big XII schools in recruiting. Mario Cristobal is going to make Oregon a national title contender very soon.

No good coaches means low recruiting rankings and mediocre showings in non con games and bowl games. If you can't beat em hire them. If you can't beat em copy them.

Think about it.

 

[weevilcatch]

Big 12 has two blue bloods and 8 also rans.

Gundy and Patterson have done a terrific job at their respective schools but they’re on the decline.

Rhule isn’t staying at Baylor for long. Will they get lucky a 3rd time in a row?

Campbell is a terrific coach but he is at a crossroads. He’s in danger of flaming out at ISU because you can’t sell progress forever.

Tech and West Va have relatively young coaches that were successful at Group of 5 schools, and will find it much tougher here.

Then you have the Kansas schools. Tough to recruit there for football. They’ll never have consistent top 20 classes. And if they do find a coach that can win they most likely aren’t going to stay. Bill Snyder is few and far between as far as loyalty goes. Mangino was fat so nobody wanted him.

Nebraska and aTm are idiots for leaving. Nebraska has turned themselves into your standard Midwest team. They’ll never sniff the playoff.

aTm has always been middle of the road save for a few years when they were caught cheating. They’ve done nothing since color TV and decided to move to an even tougher conference, lol.

But at least with those two it legitimized the conference with some big names. Probably the 8th and 20th best programs of all time.

The also rans in the Big 10 and SEC are dumb. Despite how much they want to believe, it will forever be the same schools all the time. Ohio State, Penn State, Michigan, Alabama, LSU, Auburn, Florida, and Georgia. Occasionally you’ll see Tennessee and Wisconsin flirt with being there.

I’ve said all that to say this. I like Texas in the Big 12. There is no reason to do the super conference thing. Parity is a fallacy. Joining a conference where you just beat the hell out of each other week in and week out is silly and an overrated thing to do.

 

[4MNChampsHorn]

Our bowl game proved that you must have the combination good coaching & top recruiting.

We lost at least 3 games this year due to bad coaching (coordinators).

 

[DHHorn]

"Shake your head and wonder why the SEC and the little 10 have better recruiters coaches than our conference."

The SEC is in the middle of the biggest recruiting hotbed. It's not rocket science.

 

[q1w2e3]

I guess Cali didn’t watch the SEC bowl season last year and the Big 12 smoking them...or any of the other countless examples over the years of the SEC losing nonconference games and bowl games.

Further, for this year in particular not only is the big 12 a little bit down but they got over slotted in their bowl games. Oklahoma ending up in the playoffs pushed every big 12 team up a slot. OU should’ve been in the Sugar, Baylor in the Alamo and so on and if you slot down every big 12 team they wouldn’t be overmatched.

 

[outhereincali]

I guess Cali didn’t watch the SEC bowl season last year and the Big 12 smoking them...or any of the other countless examples over the years of the SEC losing nonconference games and bowl game.

Further, for this year in particular not only is the big 12 a little bit down but they got over slotted in their bowl games. Oklahoma ending up in the playoffs pushed every big 12 team up a slot. OU should’ve been in the Sugar, Baylor in the Alamo and so on and if you slot down every big 12 team they wouldn’t be overmatched.

Oh I watched the SEC bowl season last year and that we went 3/1 against them. But they went to 4 NY6 bowl games last year and won 3 of them. And once again an SEC team is the best team in the country. And for most of the last 20 years the SEC is usually the best conference in the country. Note that I said usually. My point is recruiting and coaching.

 

[oldschoolcat]

I listened to the first half of the LSU/OU game on the radio. In the pregame the LSU announcers remarked that Oklahoma looked to be the smallest team they would play the entire season. Which reminded me of an A&M vs. Tennessee Cotton Bowl back in the day. The Tennessee players were grown a$s men.....and played like it.

 

[DHHorn]

I guess Cali didn’t watch the SEC bowl season last year and the Big 12 smoking them...or any of the other countless examples over the years of the SEC losing nonconference games and bowl games.

Further, for this year in particular not only is the big 12 a little bit down but they got over slotted in their bowl games. Oklahoma ending up in the playoffs pushed every big 12 team up a slot. OU should’ve been in the Sugar, Baylor in the Alamo and so on and if you slot down every big 12 team they wouldn’t be overmatched.

The slotting was not the problem.

#1 B12 played #1 SEC
#2 B12 played #2 SEC
#4 B12 played #6 SEC

The B12 got smoked this year. Oh well, at least Texas won.

 

[Belldozer1]

"Shake your head and wonder why the SEC and the little 10 have better recruiters coaches than our conference."

The SEC is in the middle of the biggest recruiting hotbed. It's not rocket science.

It has always been Texas, Cali, Fla. as recruiting hotbeds, has that changed? Seems like the SEC states do produce a large number of elite athletes though that stay and play in the SEC.

 

[westx]

Something to think about. Below may not be the only reason, but perhaps adds to conference strength

The Big 10 spans 11 states and is comprised of these 11 state’s premier university

The SEC spans 11 states and is comprised of 10 of those 11 state’s premier university

The PAC 12 spans 6 states and is comprised of all of the 6 state’s premier university. Apart from those are 2-3 additional blue bloods in USC, UCLA and Stanford

The ACC spans 10 states and is comprised of 4 of 10 state’s premier university. Apart from those there are 3-4additional blue bloods in Miami, FSU and Clemson and Va Tech.

Big 12 spans 5 states and is comprised of 4 of the 5 state’s premier university. No additional blue bloods.

My point, is regardless of how good the university is, if it is the state’s main university, there is more power in it’s tenure, political and financial structure because it was the first main institution of the state. With that comes status. In addition, there is more influence to make it succeed from the people of the state.

 

[q1w2e3]

Something to think about. Below may not be the only reason, but perhaps adds to conference strength

The Big 10 spans 11 states and is comprised of these 11 state’s premier university

The SEC spans 11 states and is comprised of 10 of those 11 state’s premier university

The PAC 12 spans 6 states and is comprised of all of the 6 state’s premier university. Apart from those are 2-3 additional blue bloods in USC, UCLA and Stanford

The ACC spans 10 states and is comprised of 4 of 10 state’s premier university. Apart from those there are 3-4additional blue bloods in Miami, FSU and Clemson and Va Tech.

Big 12 spans 5 states and is comprised of 4 of the 5 state’s premier university. No additional blue bloods.

My point, is regardless of how good the university is, if it is the state’s main university, there is more power in it’s tenure, political and financial structure because it was the first main institution of the state. With that comes status. In addition, there is more influence to make it succeed from the people of the state.

You have a very generous use of the term “blue blood”
Historically there are only eight blue bloods in college football and the big 12 has two of them.

 

[oldhorn2]

I don't like to admit it but these recruiting rankings do matter. You see all these SEC teams in the top 25 and you want to think they have tunnel vision. But the truth of the matter is right now the SEC is 6/2 in bowl games and if TN wins on Friday they'll be 7/2 going into the LSU/Clemson game. Bowl season is the benchmark when you rank conferences at the end of the season. Most of us are glad that AL is not in the playoffs this year but instead of AL the best team in the country is another SEC team.

Even their 2nd and 3rd tier teams win their bowl games. It's because of their recruiting. Their Big 4 always finishes high in the rankings. But those 2nd and 3rd tier teams out recruit the other Big XII schools and that's why schools like the cow college beat someone like OSU in bowl games. And those schools also have better coaches then you see in the Big XII. You think Gus Malzahn isn't a better coach than the other Big XII coaches?

Now let's look at the Big XII. For the last 10 years other than TX and OK no Big XII school has finished in the top 25 in recruiting rankings. Not one. That's why we lose most of our big non con games and bowl games and the SEC win theirs. We had 4 new coaches this year. I think Klieman at KSU has potential. And because of his ad Kirby Puckett I think Matt Wells might turn out to be a good coach. But I don't think the other 2, Brown and Miles are going to make it. Rhule looks like he's a keeper. But Patterson needs to retire soon and in a couple of years so will Gundy.

The talent differential between OK and LSU is almost sad. Baylor had a great season and like OK they played a better team, another SEC team but dyk that as of now they're last in the Big XII in recruiting? They're going for a for a big haul on NSD 2 we'll see. And speaking of Baylor that boy Charlie Brewer needs to retire. No other player on that team did more than CB in getting Baylor where they got this year. Shake your head and wonder why the SEC and the little 10 have better recruiters coaches than our conference.

The final insult for the Big XII in 2019 is that the Pac XII was better than us this year. They also have 4 schools that finish in the top 20 every year in recruiting. They also have talented coaches. Justin Wilcox, Melvin Tucker, and Jimmy Lake are going to be great coaches. Oh and don't forget old Herm Edwards. And most of them finished ahead of the other Big XII schools in recruiting. Mario Cristobal is going to make Oregon a national title contender very soon.

No good coaches means low recruiting rankings and mediocre showings in non con games and bowl games. If you can't beat em hire them. If you can't beat em copy them.

Think about it.

Cali....you have a good premise, but the facts do not bear out what you are saying. I get it and agree with the point you are trying to make, but the numbers do not bear it out.

I agree that this year the secsecsec has done very well in bowl season and the Big 12 has sucked. But....we sucked and the secsecsec has done well with recruiting for the last 3 years IN SPITE of the fact that the bowl years 2019,2018,2017 (I mean the 3 previous years to this) where the secsecsec had a combined bowl record of the WORST of all the power 5 conferences.....yet they were able to recruit well. In fact this year was essential to the secsecsec to resurect their image.

 

[westx]

You have a very generous use of the term “blue blood”
Historically there are only seven blue bloods in college football and the big 12 has two of them.

Yea, I hesitated, but probably should not have included ucla, stanford and va tech

 

[oldschoolcat]

You have a very generous use of the term “blue blood”

i.e. "we were good in the 1960's"

 

[BringBackRoyal]

You have a very generous use of the term “blue blood”
Historically there are only seven blue bloods in college football and the big 12 has two of them.

Eight blue bloods. We’re arguably eighth, unfortunately. We should have easily moved into sixth this past decade, but, in true Texas fashion, we wasted it stepping on our own dicks again.

 

[DHHorn]

It has always been Texas, Cali, Fla. as recruiting hotbeds, has that changed? Seems like the SEC states do produce a large number of elite athletes though that stay and play in the SEC.

I meant that the entire Southeast is one big recruiting hot bed. Much more than any other area of the country.

 

[Bwilk55]

Does Texas need a good Big 12 to succeed?

Financially - No. Texas will also have big money regardless of conference though ideally our conference continues to have a good TV contract

Recruiting - No. Texas will recruit well regardless of conference affiliation.

Championships - No team has ever won a championship based on the strength of their conference. Even with the playoff, teams earn a chance to win it all by winning all their games. There may be a marginal benefit for the one loss teams if your conference foes were stout. If the playoff expands, this becomes even less important. If Texas keeps scheduling an OOC blue blood they will be in the playoff with 0-1 loss (being to the blue blood or OU).

Other teams may need a strong conference to rise to the top but I don't think it matters at Texas.

 

[weevilcatch]

It has always been Texas, Cali, Fla. as recruiting hotbeds, has that changed? Seems like the SEC states do produce a large number of elite athletes though that stay and play in the SEC.

On top of Florida - Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia all have elite talent. Especially Georgia.

Plus they now get to pull from Texas as well as up the East coast from the Carolinas to Virginia. That’s a lot of area.

 

[weevilcatch]

Eight blue bloods. We’re arguably eighth, unfortunately. We should have easily moved into sixth this past decade, but, in true Texas fashion, we wasted it stepping on our own dicks again.

I have Texas as #7 all time

Alabama
Oklahoma
Ohio State
Notre Dame
Southern Cal
Michigan
Texas
Penn State
Nebraska
Georgia

Am I missing someone?

 

[burnt 2 orange]

The Big XII has some of the absolute best coaching staffs in all of college football. That’s the reason this conference generally competes quite well during bowl season and OOC. If you simply went off of recruiting rankings, this conference isn’t much better than the AAC. Coaching is what makes the majority of the difference.

 

[outhereincali]

I have Texas as #7 all time

Alabama
Oklahoma
Ohio State
Notre Dame
Southern Cal
Michigan
Texas
Penn State
Nebraska
Georgia

Am I missing someone?

I agree with your first 9 but I don't agree with GA.

 

[outhereincali]

Cali....you have a good premise, but the facts do not bear out what you are saying. I get it and agree with the point you are trying to make, but the numbers do not bear it out.

I agree that this year the secsecsec has done very well in bowl season and the Big 12 has sucked. But....we sucked and the secsecsec has done well with recruiting for the last 3 years IN SPITE of the fact that the bowl years 2019,2018,2017 (I mean the 3 previous years to this) where the secsecsec had a combined bowl record of the WORST of all the power 5 conferences.....yet they were able to recruit well. In fact this year was essential to the secsecsec to resurect their image.

And yet one of their schools is in the title game this year. Again groan. And they're a combined 7/1 in NY6 bowls over the last 2 years. And when it comes to Big XII recruiting the other 8 schools suck. I mean not even 1 school has cracked the top 25. I wouldn't anyone to think I'm cherry picking. But I'm bitter about the Big XII not just TX. One last thing. The 2 guys that did the OK/LSU game, McDonough and Blackledge, talked about the talent differential between the 2 teams before the game even started. And we saw what happened. And some OK fans have acknowledged that all they are is the best team in the second level.

 

[oldhorn2]

I agree on the talent. What I was disputing was the idea that Bowl records reflected this. What I said was the secsecsec had been the worst conference bowl wise for three years, and yet they were still thought of as being the best. The main thing is the secsecsec really is like 4 or 5 great teams and then a lot of also rans that plump those 5 teams records.....look at aggy. They beat only one team this year with a winning record.

 

[q1w2e3]

The historical college football blue-bloods are:

Michigan
Ohio st
Notre Dame
USC
Oklahoma
Texas
Alabama
Nebraska.

there are several other great programs but these are the blue bloods.

 

[westx]

Blue blood is subjective. There is well more than 8 IMO

 

[outhereincali]

I agree on the talent. What I was disputing was the idea that Bowl records reflected this. What I said was the secsecsec had been the worst conference bowl wise for three years, and yet they were still thought of as being the best. The main thing is the secsecsec really is like 4 or 5 great teams and then a lot of also rans that plump those 5 teams records.....look at aggy. They beat only one team this year with a winning record.

But the thing is AL was in the title game 4 years in a row. They're in the middle of a dynasty. They're in the SEC. And that's all that gameday notices. And when one of the other schools wins a big game they refuse to acknowledge what the other SEC teams didn't do. This is especially true of Rece Davis and Chris Fowler. And it seems like one of their teams always draws an inferior opponent in one of the NY6 bowls. LSU last year, FL this year. I understand your view on bowl game records but sadly that's what the media, aka gameday, calls it. And most people agree with them.

 

[weevilcatch]

The historical college football blue-bloods are:

Michigan
Ohio st
Notre Dame
USC
Oklahoma
Texas
Alabama
Nebraska.

there are several other great programs but these are the blue bloods.

I can’t call Nebraska a blue blood anymore

 

[oldhorn2]

I couldn't agree more....but the bowl schedule is the ONLY time the secsecsec plays anyone except directional schools or inferior schools from the secsecsec. It is the only test they ever get.....and up until this year they failed badly...as a conference. Sure Bama, LSU and Georgia and sometimes Florida and Auburn do well....but who else? I know ESPN will always be riding their jocks, but at some point you have to ask why.

 

[oldhorn2]

The historical college football blue-bloods are:

Michigan
Ohio st
Notre Dame
USC
Oklahoma
Texas
Alabama
Nebraska.

there are several other great programs but these are the blue bloods.

sadly, Michigan,NotreDame,Nebraska, and yes...Texas and USC are in danger of having their membership revoked.

 

[OzarkHorn]

sadly, Michigan,NotreDame,Nebraska, and yes...Texas and USC are in danger of having their membership revoked.

Clemson is the outlier...they have basically came out of no where in the last 5 years or so. Coaching and recruiting does matter because their conference like ours is not doing much for Clemson, but their play is doing all the talking. And it is impressive as hell. If Clemson can do it we can too.

 

[burnto]

The SEC learned the art of sleight of hand and it is paying huge dividends as a conference. The perception became and has grown into reality for many that they are the premier football conference in the land. However, if you take a look at how they did/do it, you can start to see that it was all very well orchestrated and that perception, while even still in some years is just a perception, has turned into an avalanche for them via recruits.

A few glaring examples of the extremely well done orchestration that nobody ever mentions:

1. They ALL play one non-Division 1A team each year to pad their wins(In BCS years, the computers counted these games as wins, but were pulled out when calculating SOS. Without computers, the humans now disregard this fact as well)

2. They schedule strangely(8 conference games probably to allow the aforementioned cupcake) and avoid top teams from the other division for YEARS. atm played Georgia for the FIRST time this year.

3. The conference hand picks the majority of their bowl match ups.

 

[2300 Nueces]

The Big 12 needs a strong Texas, OU, and 1 other. Preferably not Baylor. Anyway, the Big 12 is teetering on the edge. The next TV contract will be the deciding factor. The B1G and SEC are picking up substantially more TV cash. The funny thing, the SEC and LHN are partnered with Disney. The SEC seems like a natural fit outside the weak B12. The money is in the SEC and B1G unfortunately.

I wrote this in a Surly thread:

Going independent is a non-starter. Creating a new league without a TV contract is a non-starter. The fiscal hit taken by going independent without a NBC TV deal would be catastrophic. It won't happen. We aren't getting a TV deal like Notre Dame because we aren't Catholic. At this point, we have 5 options.



1. Stay in the Big 12 and add no teams. This is a loser in the long run. The Big 12's next TV deal will not be as good as the B1G deal with Fox or the SEC with Disney. The Big 12 will slowly die on the vine. TV deals will be progressively worse over time.

2. Stay in the Big 12 and add G5 teams/Az schools. This is a loser in the long run. The G5 schools are not profitable outside of TV money. The G5's need to be subsidized in down years. They do not generate enough revenue. They would drop the payout per team in the B12 because they don't command enough TV money.

3. Move to PAC 12. This is not palatable due to the TIME ZONE changes. It could be remedied by combining an eastern division with AZ schools, CU and Utah. The biggest drawback would be that the Pac just sucks. They don't generate enough TV revenue. They are not football States. The one thing that could save this option, would be for Apple or Amazon to break the piggy bank and grossly overpay for a league with Texas and OU added.

4. Move to the B1G. Fenves actually stated that this was his preference. Financially it is a viable choice due to the Fox deal but the closest competitor would be OU and next would be over 800 miles away in the frozen tundra of the north. This is not a good decision because we would be in the B1G West where the football stinks. It would not be attractive to fans to watch the conference opener against Illinois in early October. Blah

5. Move to the SEC. This is the best option. As stated above, we regain all of our historical rivals and then some. Our current LHN contract is with Disney. The SEC just hit the jackpot with its current disney contract. They are a natural fit. We belong in a league with gomer, piggy, and blo u. They are who we want to play every year. They are our natural rivals.

I think the best options for conference affiliation are:

SEC East

Florida , South Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, Vandy, Bama, Auburn, Jawja

SEC West

Piggy, gomer, OU, Misery, LSU, Texas, Ole Miss, Miss St (This just radiates hard bare knuckle football)

B1G East

Rutgers, Maryland, Pedo, tOSU, Michigan, Indiana, Mich St, Northwestern

B1G West

Iowa, Iowa St, Illinois, Whisky, Minnesota, Purdue, Nebraska, Kansas

Pac East

Utah, Colorado, Arizona, Az St., TCU, Texas Tech, Ok St, Kansas St

Pac West

USC, UCLA, Stanford, Cal, Oregon, Oregon St, Wash, Wash St.

ACC Atlantic

Domer, Syracuse, BC, Louisville, Wake, NC State, Clemson, Florida St

ACC Coastal

Pitt, WVU, Virginia, V Tech, Duke, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Miami

 

[weevilcatch]

Having fewer major conferences will implode. It’s a terrible idea because the only reason is money. And choosing to do something solely because of money is a terrible idea.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Having fewer major conferences will implode. It’s a terrible idea because the only reason is money. And choosing to do something solely because of money is a terrible idea.

If that money is used to buy Texas players, which is already happening, then we will have to make a move. Having 4 conferences is neat and clean. The winner of each goes to the playoff. We get to keep OOC games. All of the teams not already in a major conference except BYU lose money.

 

[outhereincali]

Eight blue bloods. We’re arguably eighth, unfortunately. We should have easily moved into sixth this past decade, but, in true Texas fashion, we wasted it stepping on our own dicks again.

BringBackRoyal if there's one thing on this blueblood list were not it's 8th. We're still ahead of MI.