Remembering April 19th

[outhereincali]

On 4/18/93, a Sunday night, my youngest child was born.

During this time there was a standoff between the Branch Davidians led by David Koresh and the FBI. It started off a battle between the Davidians and the ATF. It ended up badly for everyone.

I won't go into detail here. But the Davidians were a cult and that has been forgotten because the ATF and the FBI handled it so badly.

So after my daughter was born the morning after friends of ours who were expecting a child of their own came by to see our baby daughter. We turned on the tv because people said something was going down in Waco. We turned it on to see the compound catch on fire. We'll never truly know who was mostly at fault.

But there were about 30 children, maybe more who died in that fire. All I could think of was those innocent children. And here I was holding a baby daughter not even 24 hours old. No matter what those children were innocent. All I could think of was life ends and then it begins again.

 

[LonghornMM]

It was 100% Koresh's fault. He had more than ample time to come out and chose not to. Most likely, the fires were started from within the compound. Sadly, all of those deaths were the result of a whacko cult and a false prophet.

 

[outhereincali]

It was 100% Koresh's fault. He had more than ample time to come out and chose not to. Most likely, the fires were started from within the compound. Sadly, all of those deaths were the result of a whacko cult and a false prophet.

You know people have forgotten that it was a cult. But I came across a podcast where people were interviewing the survivors 20+ years later and some of them still revere David Koresh. Figure that one out. It's in sharp contrast to Jonestown where the survivors considered Jim Jones evil.

 

[Oldmanastro]

I remember that day vividly. So sad. There was that other one recently here in Texas as well, but it was a break off of the Mormons I believe. The leader was having sex with minors, many wive, etc. They had a huge ranch. He got arrested, name skips me right now.
Don’t kid yourself, there are more out there. Just hard to fathom people falling for their load of crap.

Even the Scientologist.

 

[LonghornMM]

I remember that day vividly. So sad. There was that other one recently here in Texas as well, but it was a break off of the Mormons I believe. The leader was having sex with minors, many wive, etc. They had a huge ranch. He got arrested, name skips me right now.
Don’t kid yourself, there are more out there. Just hard to fathom people falling for their load of crap.

Even the Scientologist.

I think that you may be thinking of Warren Jeffs. Scientology is a brainwashed cult as well. It is based on total control, ruled by intimidation and bilking their followers out of all of their money. It's is sad that some people fall for this garbage.

 

[clob94]

Y'all all need to read every book published about that assault. You also need to show me where the Davidian's broke any laws.

Newsflash--- they didn't.

Koresh married a 14 year old WITH her families consent. Now I grant you, he was already married. But bigamy is hardly a death worthy crime. Also, Texas law allows for 14 year olds to marry WITH parental consent. So if you're mad about that, you're not mad at that dude, you're mad at the law of Texas.

I've met Dick DeGurerin, the guy who defended them and I know one of Bill Johnson's co-counsels (prosecuting attorney team) dated his daughter for a few years--- and to this day, nobody has been able to provide PROOF that anything illegal was taking place at that compound other than bigamy.

Don't believe me? Do your own research.

We're they weird? Ya they were. Were they living a different lifestyle than the norm? Sure. We're they breaking heinous laws? Nope.

Get on Netflix and watch the new series called "Waco". Pretty accurate how the ATF and FBI had an agenda. After MURDERING people at Ruby Ridge, they doubled down in Waco--- and screwed it up royally.

Now I don't agree with their lifestyle and what not, but the law is the law. And these guys deserved nothing worse than a couple of constables rolling up and knocking on the door. Not a full on joint task Force assault with guns blazing.

 

[clob94]

Oh and BTW--- if anybody wants to know when fake news got REALLY bad-- watch that Netflix show. The media was flat out lying about everything from milk to suicide. Why?

Because the FBI was feeding them lies.

 

[Belldozer1]

I think that you may be thinking of Warren Jeffs. Scientology is a brainwashed cult as well. It is based on total control, ruled by intimidation and bilking their followers out of all of their money. It's is sad that some people fall for this garbage.

There’s about 3 or 4 of actual modern day popular religions that are nothing more than cults, I won’t name them but most folks can figure out pretty easy but sheeple still give them money etc.

Bull dike Janet Reno thought she would walk away with a feather in her hat for the Branch Davidian raid and find them in possession of illegal guns etc but came away looking much, much, worse for wear.

koresh was a bonehead with his negotiations with the ATF/FBI during the standoff. According to records and accounts of cult members who got out alive said Koresh would lie about surrendering, set a day and then go back on his word etc. 51 day standoff is a long time.

 

[clob94]

There’s about 3 or 4 of actual modern day popular regions that are nothing more than cults, I won’t name them but most folks can figure out pretty easy but sheeple still give them money etc.

The region in college station.
The region in Norman, Oklahoma.
The region in Nancy Pelosi's voting district.

What do I win?

 

[Belldozer1]

It was 100% Koresh's fault. He had more than ample time to come out and chose not to. Most likely, the fires were started from within the compound. Sadly, all of those deaths were the result of a whacko cult and a false prophet.

You’re right he could have come out but didn’t.

if only the social distancing gimmick was around back then, they would have clearly been in violation and would have needed to be dealt with accordingly

 

[oldhorn2]

tomorrow I will tell y'all a true story about that Waco disaster....no time tonight.....

 

[outhereincali]

The region in college station.
The region in Norman, Oklahoma.
The region in Nancy Pelosi's voting district.

What do I win?

I don't know about SF but the SEC, fb, and, bb and the fans who worship them are a cult.

 

[Son of Wasatch]

The region in college station.
The region in Norman, Oklahoma.
The region in Nancy Pelosi's voting district.

What do I win?

I laughed.

 

[StrangerHorn]

Koresh was just a crazy cunnnt like McVeigh.....

 

[oldhorn2]

Here is the deal about the Waco disaster that few ever talk about....It is also another clue as to why the FBI is among the dumbest law enforcement agencies.

The reason Koresh was under scrutiny was that his group was amassing a large arsonal of weapons including 50 cal machine guns. Enter the FBI and their equally smart partners, the ATF. They wanted to bring in Koresh and quiz him on what was going on. Sadly, they thought they were the smartest bunch around and needed to keep this operation secret. When they approached the compound as only the FBI can do....lots of men, vehicles etc. the Dividean members rightfully blocked them and the standoff ensued. At this point the Sheriff came out to the compound mad as hell. He said...."why didn't you tell me you wanted this guy? He walks the streets of Waco every day....I could have picked him up anytime!"...The FBI told him they couldn't afford any "leaks" that the Op was going to happen.

Even then the situation could have quietly been resolved. The DPS told the FBI to simply leave the people inside what was now a wired in prison camp....put just a few folks on guard and wait them out....Oh no, the FBI was way to clever to go with this idea. Instead, they put monster loud speakers on vehicles and blared in Rock music which would surely make them come out. The DPS was very pissed that they had to dedicate so many men to this fools mission, but what could they do?

In the end, the FBI ran out of patience and went in. The rest as they say, is history.


Damned sad how it ended. Score another on the FBI totem pole of stupidity.

 

[clob94]

Here is the deal about the Waco disaster that few ever talk about....It is also another clue as to why the FBI is among the dumbest law enforcement agencies.

The reason Koresh was under scrutiny was that his group was amassing a large arsonal of weapons including 50 cal machine guns. Enter the FBI and their equally smart partners, the ATF. They wanted to bring in Koresh and quiz him on what was going on. Sadly, they thought they were the smartest bunch around and needed to keep this operation secret. When they approached the compound as only the FBI can do....lots of men, vehicles etc. the Dividean members rightfully blocked them and the standoff ensued. At this point the Sheriff came out to the compound mad as hell. He said...."why didn't you tell me you wanted this guy? He walks the streets of Waco every day....I could have picked him up anytime!"...The FBI told him they couldn't afford any "leaks" that the Op was going to happen.

Even then the situation could have quietly been resolved. The DPS told the FBI to simply leave the people inside what was now a wired in prison camp....put just a few folks on guard and wait them out....Oh no, the FBI was way to clever to go with this idea. Instead, they put monster loud speakers on vehicles and blared in Rock music which would surely make them come out. The DPS was very pissed that they had to dedicate so many men to this fools mission, but what could they do?

In the end, the FBI ran out of patience and went in. The rest as they say, is history.


Damned sad how it ended. Score another on the FBI totem pole of stupidity.

Watch the deal on Netflix. I had two cousins that were DPS there at the time. Twins. West Texas boys. Both were on the DPS "shooter" or "Sniper" squad---- whatever it was called back then. They used to do the protection detail training with the DOD and DOE with simulated nuke trucks--- 18 wheelers hauling nukes to and from the Pantex facility in the panhandle. They'd bring in SOF guys to play the bad guys. It was like high tech laser tag. Cool stories.

Anyway--- as the story goes, there were several DPS officers that were approaching their bosses and saying "dude---- we don't think these people broke any laws---- can we end up in trouble by participating in this?".

So even our own DPS officers knew this thing was shady and being handled improperly.

 

[oldhorn2]

Clob….to tell the truth, the DPS knows ANY operation of the FBI has a high likelihood of going south because of the buffoons running the show. My personal experience in FBI operations gives me the opinion that a high school ROTC unit could do a more professional job.

 

[oldhorn2]

I don't remember the lady in the Clinton administration that called the shots on the Waco deal, but she gave the go ahead to go in as I remember.(I remember less and less every day though)

The aftermath was so glossed over and "fake newsed" that the true story will forever be clouded.

Janet Reno was the AG who gave the go ahead. Unlike everyone else involved, she took responsibility. Had she been made aware of the incompetence of the FBI-ATF, I doubt she would have given the go ahead.

 

[LonghornMM]

Some may agree or disagree, but if Koresh would have just cooperated with the feds, all of what happened would have been avoided. He dug in an lost. On another note, I'm surprised the government hasn't shut down the Scientology cult, and/or at a very minimum, taken away their tax exempt status. They are no religion.

 

[oldhorn2]

the govt needs to shut down the tax exemption of ALL churches. Most are just giant money printing businesses...Joel Olstine...Billy Graham...John Hagey...Oral Roberts...ad nauseum...

 

[StrangerHorn]

Oldhorn if ya got a 100, I will put ya in my Prayer Closet!

 

[clob94]

Some may agree or disagree, but if Koresh would have just cooperated with the feds, all of what happened would have been avoided. He dug in an lost. On another note, I'm surprised the government hasn't shut down the Scientology cult, and/or at a very minimum, taken away their tax exempt status. They are no religion.

Hold up---


You're sitting in your house not bothering a soul. All the sudden, 50 dudes with full auto SMG's and assault rifles crash your gate and one of the trigger happy jackasses pops off an ND (negligent discharge) which causes all the hair trigger idiots to think someone is firing at them. They shoot and wound you and then kill your wife and buddy, who was just over there drinking a beer and watching football, and oh by the way, they shoot and kill one of your kids. Murder. Now you want me to believe that you're just going to throw your hands up and roll over and surrender?

Dude. Fvck that. The FBI has the power to make it ALL look like it was YOUR FAULT. They can do WHATEVER THEY WANT. The only chance you have is to retreat, displace and fight back until the press arrives so you can tell your story. Now tell me the truth, you really just going to surrender to a bunch of people that just shot up your home and murdered friends and family members of yours? You know they can't let you survive at this point. So then, they go to the press and try to ruin your reputation. They call you a child molester. A drug addict. A gun runner. Anything they can to take away your credibility so that if you DO make it out alive, you'll plea out because you know you won't get a fair trial.

This is their MO.

 

[LonghornMM]

clob, I get your point, but Koresh was a bigamist and had amassed an arsenal of guns and was threatening his people and law enforcement. It's not like he was "just minding his own business". Dude did it to himself. He had ample time to cooperate and gave the finger to law enforcement. Now is the FBI perfect, and could this have been handled better? Sure, but there is no defense for the nut job that Koresh was.

 

[oldhorn2]

I don't recall at the time Koresh ever being said to be a bigamist. Perhaps he was. I just don't remember hearing it.A nut job? I think all those cult folks are nut jobs.

 

[oldhorn2]

https://time.com/5115201/waco-siege-standoff-fbi-david-koresh/


anyone is free to believe one side or the other.....just remember....it is the victor that goes on to write the history


In the end the whole thing could have been avoided by one damned simple phone call from the FBI to the Sheriff.

 

[oldhorn2]

Also MM....there is no mention then or now that Koresh EVER threatened his own people. He was no Jim Jones holding them prisoner.

 

[LonghornMM]

Also MM....there is no mention then or now that Koresh EVER threatened his own people. He was no Jim Jones holding them prisoner.

I thought that Koresh did threaten some of his followers inside the compound, but I could be mistaken. Either way, the bottom line is the whole thing was messed up on both ends. There is fault on both sides, but Koresh erred by digging in with the government, which never turns out well. He paid the ultimate price, duped his followers and was proven to be a false prophet.

 

[oldhorn2]

one could argue that what the Dividians did in Waco was no different than what the defenders of the Alamo did. The main difference was the Mexican army played Deguelo and the Feds played loud rock music.

 

[clob94]

clob, I get your point, but Koresh was a bigamist and had amassed an arsenal of guns and was threatening his people and law enforcement. It's not like he was "just minding his own business". Dude did it to himself. He had ample time to cooperate and gave the finger to law enforcement. Now is the FBI perfect, and could this have been handled better? Sure, but there is no defense for the nut job that Koresh was.

Let's clear this misnomer up. The sheriff in that county was a FRIEND of the Davidian's as well as Koresh. In point of fact, when the FBI did solicit his help, long after the ATF had opened fired and killed and wounded several of them, the sheriff called David and then approached the house to talk with them. When asked by the FBI if he was taking his sidearm with him, the sheriff responded "I don't need a damn gun. They ain't gonna shoot me. Dumb ass!". In point of fact, when the ATF surveillance team set up shop in a run down house down the street from them, the Davidian's knew something was up and CALLED the local sheriff to see if it was some of their guys setting up there. The sheriff's response was "uh no---- why would we?". What you don't know what the Feds hadn't even bother to TELL the sheriff that they were in town doing this. That's bad law enforcement manners and practices.

As far as the guns go-- yes, they had a lot of guns. But over 100 people lived there. So let's say I own two pistols, two rifles and two shotguns. And I move to a place where there's 100 adults that also own 6 weapons. Well now there are 600 weapons there. On top of that, the Davidian's would buy guns and the resell them at gun shows for a profit. Is that illegal? Nope.

Yes, he had two wives. But so did Solomon and Moses and other biblical figures. Is that a crime that deserves being murdered? Yes he had a young wife that he married with parental consent (totally legal in Texas). Did he own a bunch of guns that they bought and sold for profit? Yup. Totally legal. The only law that dude broke was having two consenting wives. Mormons do that all the time. Bottom line is the dude was different. He marched to a different drum beat than the Baptists in that area. The FBI and ATF were looking really bad after Ruby Ridge and they needed a win. They listened to the bull sheet reports of the local gossip mongers in Baptist-ville (mind you the same town that covered up a massive rape and sexual abuse scandal at their OWN private university) and the FBI spun rumor into probable cause or exigent circumstances that lead to a federal agency, desperate to look good in front of the new AG, Janet Reno and new President, Bill Clinton, in hopes of increasing funding. And once they dug themselves into tha hole, they were too far gone to pull back.

Why?

Because for every 1 law enforcement officer in America, there are 5000 citizens. Law enforcement knows that at any moment, if the citizens unite, law enforcement would be crushed. So, they must project force and power to keep the people from feeling froggy and challenging that force. If the FBI would have pulled out, they would have looked weak and inept.

I don't agree with the Davidian's belief system or way of life. But I do believe in the law. These people were not breaking the law.

 

[weevilcatch]

the govt needs to shut down the tax exemption of ALL churches. Most are just giant money printing businesses...Joel Olstine...Billy Graham...John Hagey...Oral Roberts...ad nauseum...

Uh, no thanks oldhorn. Lots of churches do lots of good with their tax exemption.

 

[weevilcatch]

clob, I get your point, but Koresh was a bigamist and had amassed an arsenal of guns and was threatening his people and law enforcement. It's not like he was "just minding his own business". Dude did it to himself. He had ample time to cooperate and gave the finger to law enforcement. Now is the FBI perfect, and could this have been handled better? Sure, but there is no defense for the nut job that Koresh was.

None of that warranted what the federal agencies did.

 

[oldhorn2]

if you can tax billionairs why cant you tax the catholic church?.It has to be the richest institution in the world.

 

[Son of Wasatch]

The Clintons were on a witch hunt against anyone with Right Wing leans. That alone put Ruby Ridge and Korish in the cross hairs, didn't matter if they were innocent or guilty, they were right wing organizations. They were believed to be terrorist so they were attacked by the government.

Ruby Ridge was the worst IMO because they were nothing but a bunch of Isolationist who wanted to be left alone in Idaho with the rest of their Nazi friends.

 

[clob94]

The Clintons were on a witch hunt against anyone with Right Wing leans. That alone put Ruby Ridge and Korish in the cross hairs, didn't matter if they were innocent or guilty, they were right wing organizations. They were believed to be terrorist so they were attacked by the government.

Ruby Ridge was the worst IMO because they were nothing but a bunch of Isolationist who wanted to be left alone in Idaho with the rest of their Nazi friends.

Funny thing about Ruby Ridge, well not funny--- a federal agent went to a broke man who was a former Green beret-- a decorated soldier btw-- and KNEW he was hard up for money-- and then asked him to saw off a shotgun for them-- undercover agent btw. So the hard up Green Beret said "uh, ya. Ok. I'll make you a sawed off shotgun using the same skill set I was TAUGHT by the government...." And then they ended up killing members of his family for it.

 

[weevilcatch]

if you can tax billionairs why cant you tax the catholic church?.It has to be the richest institution in the world.

Don't know...I'm not Catholic