That burnt orange nation article from September is a heck of an indictment on Charlie Strong's offensive incompetence.
Texas Monthly says Strong had less talent than prior HCs
- Thread starter 4MNChampsHorn
- Start date
This article is still relevant today.
Charlie just isn't cut out to be a major D1 head coach. It's not a big deal, he just is a victim of the Peter Principle.
Charlie just isn't cut out to be a major D1 head coach. It's not a big deal, he just is a victim of the Peter Principle.
I thought the article spoke to a point that was being debated. And hopefully might have a solution with the new hires. But what that article brought up back then, played right out in to this past season and even today with new offensive hires.
I just read it today. I didn't realize his trend of bad coaching hires at OC existed at Lousiville and UT (besides Watson). I hope the new OC hires break the trend.
First off, no that is revisionist history. There were one or two BMD that wanted to keep Mack, but there was a huge contingent that was already negotiating with Saban.
Agree here. When Strong was officially put in place on Jan 6th....there were still plenty of quality OCs wanting to come here. Morris was apparently giddy at the idea. As was Herman. No matter what the alleged behind the scenes support for those guys was/wasn't........make no mistake that Strong wanted Watson all along.
Remember how there was a lot of people saying no to Watson and how Strong announced he wouldn't be calling the plays to get him in the door and then a few months later he announced he was going to be the play caller????
Cuz that is exactly what happened. No one made Strong take Watson, in fact no one here really wanted him. Just Strong. And there were other quality options, but feel free to hang on that excuse if you'd like.
Herman said no after being contacted by Strong, and Patterson veto'd Morris' 5.2million buyout.
Strong's three finalists reported on January 12:
Shawn Watson, Mike Groh and Joker Phillips.
Other possible candidates mentioned at the time:
Kyle Shanahan, Miami Dolphins
Mike Norvell, Ariz State
Josh Henson, Missouri
Scott Frost, Oregon
link
I'm not sure Watson was his first choice, but he probably felt it was a safe move. Hindsight is 20/20 and I'm sure he regrets it, and also regrets not cutting him loose at the end of the 2014 season.
Hook 'em
Rex, that's also how I remember it. In addition, Morris was making over $1million as an OC. I was totally against Watson mainly because of the Colt McCoy incident. Once he was hired, I gave in and felt I needed to back him since he was now on our side.
There was some speculation that Watson 'had some choice words' for Colt after Nebraska thought they won when playing for the big12 championship, with a chance to play for a national title in 2009 on the line. Instead the refs ruled there was 1 sec left, we got another play and Hunter Lawrence nailed a 46 yd field goal. Corn's been crying ever since. I don't think Colt or Watson has ever commented on what was or was not said.
Here's the video: the watson part is at 00:28
And the newspaper photo which shows a wider angle.:
Hook 'em
A poster at shaggybevo, sweetjones, put this together regarding Mack's last 4 classes.
2010, ranked #3
Stars
• Jackson Jeffcoat, DE (NFL backup)
• Jordan Hicks, MLB (NFL star in the making if he can avoid injuries)
• Trey Hopkins, OG/OT
Starters
• Case McCoy, QB (lol)
• Dominic Espinosa, C (injured)
• John Harris, WR (Gaskamp winner)
• Mike Davis, WR
• Carrington Byndom, CB (made one tackle in the NFL)
• Adrian Phillips, DB (NFL backup)
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Connor Wood, QB
• Traylon Shead, RB
• Chris Jones, WR
• Darius White, WR
• Darius Terrell, WR
• Taylor Bible, DT (colossal bust)
• Ashton Dorsey, DT
• DeAires Cotton, DT
• Greg Daniels, DE
• Reggie Wilson, DE
• Aaron Benson, LB
• Tevin Jackson, LB
• Bryant Jackson, DB
• Adrian White, CB
• DeMarco Cobbs, ATH
• William Russ, K/PK/P
2011, Ranked #3
Stars
• None
Starters
• Taylor Doyle, C
• Cedric Reed, DE
• David Ash, QB (injuries)
• Joe Bergeron, RB (booted off team)
• Malcolm Brown, RB
• Jaxon Shipley, WR
• Mykkele Thompson, DB (NFL IR)
• Steve Edmond, LB
• Quandre Diggs, DB (NFL, looking more and more like an all-Pro)
• Sedrick Flowers, G
• Josh Cochran, OT (injuries)
• Desmond Jackson, DT
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Josh Turner, DB (suspended, left)
• Leroy Scott, S (kicked off)
• Garrett Greenlea, OL (transferred)
• Quincy Russell, DT
• Chet Moss, FB (kicked off)
• Sheroid Evans*, DB (might move up)
• MJ McFarland, TE (transferred)
• Kendall Thompson, LB (transferred)
• Miles Onyegbule, WR-QB (injured)
• Marcus Hutchins, L-OL (backup)
2012, Ranked #2
Stars
• Malcom Brown, DT (NFL starter)
Starters
• Shiro Davis, DE
• Peter Jinkens, LB
• Marcus Johnson, WR
• Daje Johnson, ATH
• Duke Thomas, CB
• Hassan Ridgeway, DT (NFL potential)
• Johnathan Gray RB
• Donald Hawkins OL
• Alex De La Torre, FB
And walk-on Dylan Haines
Contributors; possible starters next year
TE Caleb Blueitt, DT Paul Boyette, LB Dalton Santos, DE Bryce Cottrell
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Connor Brewer QB (transferred)
• Curtis Riser, G (transferred)
• Kennedy Estelle OT (kicked off)
• Cayleb Jones, WR (star at Arizona now, he's the dude who punched that tennis player over the volleyball player. NFL potential.)
• Jalen Overstreet RB (kicked off)
• Kevin Vaccaro DB (backup)
• Kendall Sanders WR (kicked off)
• Camrhon Hughes OL (quit)
• Adrian Colbert DB (bust)
• Timothy Cole LB (backup)
• Bryson Echols DB
• Nick Jordan K
• Brandon Moore DT (gone after a year)
• Alex Norman DT (Academic All Big 12)
2013, Ranked #24
Stars
• None
Starters
• Kent Perkins, G
• Tyrone Swoopes, QB (might lose job)
• Naashon Hughes, DE
• Geoff Swaim, TE (only here two years; NFL backup)
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Chevoski Collins, ATH (kicked off)
• Antwuan Davis, DB (beaten out by Strong's wolfpack)
• Deoundrei Davis, LB (kicked off)
• Rami Hammad, OL (Baylor)
• Desmond Harrison, OL (kicked off)
• Erik Huhn, DB
• Darius James, OL (scrub at Auburn)
• Montrell Meander, WR (kicked off)
• Jake Oliver, WR (transfer candidate)
• Jake Raulerson, C, (transferred; projected 2016 starter)
• Jacorey Warrick, WR (dropsies)
2014, Ranked # 20, the Mack/Charlie Combo Class
Stars
• None, yet.
Starters
• Poona Ford, DT
• Jason Hall, DB
• Armanti Foreman, WR
• D'Onta Foreman, RB
Projected 2016 Starters
• Jerrod Heard, QB
Possible Future Starters or Key Back-Ups
• John Bonney, DB
• Blake Whiteley, TE
• Elijah Rodriguez, OL
• Terrell Cuney, OL
• Edwin Freeman, LB
• Andrew Beck, TE
• Roderick Bernard, WR
• Chris Nelson, DT
• Derick Roberson, DE
• Jermaine Roberts, DB
Deep Down the Depth Charts
• Garrett Gray, TE
• Dorian Leonard, WR
• Jake McMillon, DT
Already Gone
• Alex Anderson, OL
• Donald Catalon, RB
• Cameron Hampton, LB
• Kevin Shorter, RB (medical)
2010, ranked #3
Stars
• Jackson Jeffcoat, DE (NFL backup)
• Jordan Hicks, MLB (NFL star in the making if he can avoid injuries)
• Trey Hopkins, OG/OT
Starters
• Case McCoy, QB (lol)
• Dominic Espinosa, C (injured)
• John Harris, WR (Gaskamp winner)
• Mike Davis, WR
• Carrington Byndom, CB (made one tackle in the NFL)
• Adrian Phillips, DB (NFL backup)
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Connor Wood, QB
• Traylon Shead, RB
• Chris Jones, WR
• Darius White, WR
• Darius Terrell, WR
• Taylor Bible, DT (colossal bust)
• Ashton Dorsey, DT
• DeAires Cotton, DT
• Greg Daniels, DE
• Reggie Wilson, DE
• Aaron Benson, LB
• Tevin Jackson, LB
• Bryant Jackson, DB
• Adrian White, CB
• DeMarco Cobbs, ATH
• William Russ, K/PK/P
2011, Ranked #3
Stars
• None
Starters
• Taylor Doyle, C
• Cedric Reed, DE
• David Ash, QB (injuries)
• Joe Bergeron, RB (booted off team)
• Malcolm Brown, RB
• Jaxon Shipley, WR
• Mykkele Thompson, DB (NFL IR)
• Steve Edmond, LB
• Quandre Diggs, DB (NFL, looking more and more like an all-Pro)
• Sedrick Flowers, G
• Josh Cochran, OT (injuries)
• Desmond Jackson, DT
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Josh Turner, DB (suspended, left)
• Leroy Scott, S (kicked off)
• Garrett Greenlea, OL (transferred)
• Quincy Russell, DT
• Chet Moss, FB (kicked off)
• Sheroid Evans*, DB (might move up)
• MJ McFarland, TE (transferred)
• Kendall Thompson, LB (transferred)
• Miles Onyegbule, WR-QB (injured)
• Marcus Hutchins, L-OL (backup)
2012, Ranked #2
Stars
• Malcom Brown, DT (NFL starter)
Starters
• Shiro Davis, DE
• Peter Jinkens, LB
• Marcus Johnson, WR
• Daje Johnson, ATH
• Duke Thomas, CB
• Hassan Ridgeway, DT (NFL potential)
• Johnathan Gray RB
• Donald Hawkins OL
• Alex De La Torre, FB
And walk-on Dylan Haines
Contributors; possible starters next year
TE Caleb Blueitt, DT Paul Boyette, LB Dalton Santos, DE Bryce Cottrell
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Connor Brewer QB (transferred)
• Curtis Riser, G (transferred)
• Kennedy Estelle OT (kicked off)
• Cayleb Jones, WR (star at Arizona now, he's the dude who punched that tennis player over the volleyball player. NFL potential.)
• Jalen Overstreet RB (kicked off)
• Kevin Vaccaro DB (backup)
• Kendall Sanders WR (kicked off)
• Camrhon Hughes OL (quit)
• Adrian Colbert DB (bust)
• Timothy Cole LB (backup)
• Bryson Echols DB
• Nick Jordan K
• Brandon Moore DT (gone after a year)
• Alex Norman DT (Academic All Big 12)
2013, Ranked #24
Stars
• None
Starters
• Kent Perkins, G
• Tyrone Swoopes, QB (might lose job)
• Naashon Hughes, DE
• Geoff Swaim, TE (only here two years; NFL backup)
Scrubs, Busts, Injuries, Transfers etc.
• Chevoski Collins, ATH (kicked off)
• Antwuan Davis, DB (beaten out by Strong's wolfpack)
• Deoundrei Davis, LB (kicked off)
• Rami Hammad, OL (Baylor)
• Desmond Harrison, OL (kicked off)
• Erik Huhn, DB
• Darius James, OL (scrub at Auburn)
• Montrell Meander, WR (kicked off)
• Jake Oliver, WR (transfer candidate)
• Jake Raulerson, C, (transferred; projected 2016 starter)
• Jacorey Warrick, WR (dropsies)
2014, Ranked # 20, the Mack/Charlie Combo Class
Stars
• None, yet.
Starters
• Poona Ford, DT
• Jason Hall, DB
• Armanti Foreman, WR
• D'Onta Foreman, RB
Projected 2016 Starters
• Jerrod Heard, QB
Possible Future Starters or Key Back-Ups
• John Bonney, DB
• Blake Whiteley, TE
• Elijah Rodriguez, OL
• Terrell Cuney, OL
• Edwin Freeman, LB
• Andrew Beck, TE
• Roderick Bernard, WR
• Chris Nelson, DT
• Derick Roberson, DE
• Jermaine Roberts, DB
Deep Down the Depth Charts
• Garrett Gray, TE
• Dorian Leonard, WR
• Jake McMillon, DT
Already Gone
• Alex Anderson, OL
• Donald Catalon, RB
• Cameron Hampton, LB
• Kevin Shorter, RB (medical)
Bobby Burton at 247 did an autopsy piece regarding Mack's 2013 class...
Baylor junior defensive tackle Andrew Billings declared for the NFL draft yesterday afternoon. As a recruit in the class of 2013, Billings chose Baylor over Texas and TCU. Alabama junior defensive lineman A'Shawn Robinson is also expected to declare for the NFL draft before Monday's deadline (note: no Alabama underclassmen has declared yet but as many as eight might do so). During his recruitment in the class of 2013, Robinson was originally committed to Texas before flipping to Bama less than a month before national signing day. The recruiting losses of both Billings and Robinson are the punctuation mark on a 2013 recruiting class that will ultimately go down as one of the worst in Longhorn history and certainly the final nail in the coffin of Mack Brown. But Billings and Robinson aren't the only two. Several players had originally committed to Texas but ended up elsewhere in the class of 2013.
Two multi-year starters at A&M, receiver Ricky Seals-Jones and defensive end Daeshon Hall had both pledged to Texas in the pre-season before eventually backing out. Then there's Durham Smythe. The Belton product had committed to Texas before switching to Notre Dame and becoming a starter at tight end for the Irish. Then there's TCU running back Kyle Hicks, who will be the Horned Frogs' likely starter at the position next year. There were other curious and questionable decisions made by the Longhorns staff in that 2013 class.
Texas didn't offer Sugar Land corner Maurice Smith early. It upset Smith, who then committed to Alabama before ever visiting Texas. Smith started in the secondary for Bama on Monday night. Defensive end/linebacker Deon Hollins, another Sugar Land product, never got a Texas offer. Hollins likely would have ended up at Texas had he got one. Instead, he now starts at UCLA. And losing on defensive tackles Billings and Robinson also dictated Texas' decision not to heavily pursue Vincent Taylor and Charles Walker, in-state DTs who start for Oklahoma State and Oklahoma, respectively.
Add all of these things up, and it's easy to see what a different team Charlie Strong might have been coaching. But that list doesn't even include the decision by Texas to pursue quarterback Tyrone Swoopes to the exclusion of current Ohio State starting QB J.T. Barrett. Instead, Texas signed just four future starters in the class of 2013 -- Kent Perkins, Geoff Swaim (JUCO), Naashon Hughes, and Swoopes. It should be noted, however, that three of the more heralded prospects in the 2013 class were offensive linemen Darius James, Rami Hammad and Desmond Harrison. Those three never played much for Texas. James and Harrison violated team rules and were asked to leave whereas Hammad just didn't like line coach Joe Wickline.
**
So why does this autopsy of the 2013 class even matter? Put all of it together, along with the early NFL departure of Hassan Ridgeway (a redshirt from the class of 2012), and the result is a Texas senior class heading into the 2016 season that may be the weakest we've ever seen. EVER. I went back 20 years trying to find one I'd consider weaker and I simply can't find it. It's even weaker, because of depth issues, than the Horns' senior class a couple of years ago that produced no NFL draft picks.
Baylor junior defensive tackle Andrew Billings declared for the NFL draft yesterday afternoon. As a recruit in the class of 2013, Billings chose Baylor over Texas and TCU. Alabama junior defensive lineman A'Shawn Robinson is also expected to declare for the NFL draft before Monday's deadline (note: no Alabama underclassmen has declared yet but as many as eight might do so). During his recruitment in the class of 2013, Robinson was originally committed to Texas before flipping to Bama less than a month before national signing day. The recruiting losses of both Billings and Robinson are the punctuation mark on a 2013 recruiting class that will ultimately go down as one of the worst in Longhorn history and certainly the final nail in the coffin of Mack Brown. But Billings and Robinson aren't the only two. Several players had originally committed to Texas but ended up elsewhere in the class of 2013.
Two multi-year starters at A&M, receiver Ricky Seals-Jones and defensive end Daeshon Hall had both pledged to Texas in the pre-season before eventually backing out. Then there's Durham Smythe. The Belton product had committed to Texas before switching to Notre Dame and becoming a starter at tight end for the Irish. Then there's TCU running back Kyle Hicks, who will be the Horned Frogs' likely starter at the position next year. There were other curious and questionable decisions made by the Longhorns staff in that 2013 class.
Texas didn't offer Sugar Land corner Maurice Smith early. It upset Smith, who then committed to Alabama before ever visiting Texas. Smith started in the secondary for Bama on Monday night. Defensive end/linebacker Deon Hollins, another Sugar Land product, never got a Texas offer. Hollins likely would have ended up at Texas had he got one. Instead, he now starts at UCLA. And losing on defensive tackles Billings and Robinson also dictated Texas' decision not to heavily pursue Vincent Taylor and Charles Walker, in-state DTs who start for Oklahoma State and Oklahoma, respectively.
Add all of these things up, and it's easy to see what a different team Charlie Strong might have been coaching. But that list doesn't even include the decision by Texas to pursue quarterback Tyrone Swoopes to the exclusion of current Ohio State starting QB J.T. Barrett. Instead, Texas signed just four future starters in the class of 2013 -- Kent Perkins, Geoff Swaim (JUCO), Naashon Hughes, and Swoopes. It should be noted, however, that three of the more heralded prospects in the 2013 class were offensive linemen Darius James, Rami Hammad and Desmond Harrison. Those three never played much for Texas. James and Harrison violated team rules and were asked to leave whereas Hammad just didn't like line coach Joe Wickline.
**
So why does this autopsy of the 2013 class even matter? Put all of it together, along with the early NFL departure of Hassan Ridgeway (a redshirt from the class of 2012), and the result is a Texas senior class heading into the 2016 season that may be the weakest we've ever seen. EVER. I went back 20 years trying to find one I'd consider weaker and I simply can't find it. It's even weaker, because of depth issues, than the Horns' senior class a couple of years ago that produced no NFL draft picks.
Some of that is on Mack. Some of that is on Strong. No one made Strong take a hard and fast approach and kick multiple players off the squad. Why keep Daje and not Bergeron or Estelle or insert player here? I know each kid is a different case, but he kept some after they failed multiple chances. So this wasn't some hard line, cut out the cancer approach that some are selling it as.
Also attrition is more than expected and this story is one that is similar to many schools after a coaching change. Some more than others.
There is no way to know that without being in the locker room.
All reports are that Daje did everything the coaches asked of him and the others decided smoking pot and not going to class was more important to them.
Pretty hard to get respect on your cole values if you waive them the first time it is a player you need. How's that other approach working for Sumlin these days?
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I still contend that Tex Watson would be an upgrade over Shawn Watson as OC. And Tex isn't an OC AND he is in prison.
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Longhor Foundation is on the line wanting my donation ... So you fire Mack Brown and Hire a guy who is 11-14 for 2 season I say to them...
McCombs was right ... Strong would be a great Assist Coach at Texas ... Not ready for prime time top tier Football Program and will be gone after this year...
McCombs was right ... Strong would be a great Assist Coach at Texas ... Not ready for prime time top tier Football Program and will be gone after this year...
Look above at what talent Mack brought in for the '11, '12, '13, and '14 classes. You want to fire the guy that has to fix that up after he has just 1 class on campus that is his? 4 of whom earned Freshman All American honors. There were more than 10 key contributors this year who have never been to Spring camp.
If Mack hadn't gone to sleep in recruiting he'd still be here.
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Success breeds success - Texas is not as sexy as it once was - Texas hasn't been winning big lately - and I am a HUGE Texas fan - Baylor and TCU are snagging more and more out of the talent pool in Texas - A & M the same thing - now that Houston had a huge bowl victory over Florida State, they will start to snag more and more of the top talent out of the Houston area - this next season is going to be very interesting
You gotta tell the whole story.
Mack actually brought in what I believe were decently ranked classes. A coaching change caused some to leave and the new coach forced many off the team. That plays a big role.
Also, the new HC aka CEO......could have had a better plan for the corporate takeover. He could have softly transitioned from the old regime. Not decimating an OL when the team had no QB. And about that QB, everyone and their mom knew that was our biggest issue. To date, it still hasn't been remedied. That is not Macks fault. Day 1, if I took this job......I address the biggest issue and I address it hard. Just like if I were to take over at a new job. You fix the biggest issue. Not ignore it and hope for the best. Also the offensive hire initially were loudly criticized and were proven to be a bust. As was the year 2 patchwork. Year 3 finally looks like we've addressed the QB and OC issues that we should have from day 1. Not Macks fault.
Strong kicked 9 off the team
Desmond Harrison (OT) Kennedy Estelle (OT) Kendall Sanders (WR) and Joe Bergeron (RB) Leroy Scott (DB) , Chet Moss (RB) , Montrel Meander (WR), Jalen Overstreet (RB/QB), Chevoski Collins (WR) and Deoundrei Davis (LB).
The only guy on that list that would have helped was Estelle but he wanted to be a gangster rapper and couldn't stop smoking pot. Everyone else on that list would have been buried on the depth chart wasting a scholarship.
Desmond Harrison (OT) Kennedy Estelle (OT) Kendall Sanders (WR) and Joe Bergeron (RB) Leroy Scott (DB) , Chet Moss (RB) , Montrel Meander (WR), Jalen Overstreet (RB/QB), Chevoski Collins (WR) and Deoundrei Davis (LB).
The only guy on that list that would have helped was Estelle but he wanted to be a gangster rapper and couldn't stop smoking pot. Everyone else on that list would have been buried on the depth chart wasting a scholarship.
From day 1, Charlie Strong needed to:
1. Shore up the defense and be the Co-defensive coordinator
2. Get a QB and OL
3. Hire the right offensive coordinator at the same price he paid Watson (spread offense, recruiter, and great at using the players you have)
He failed at all of those things and our record reflects that. I hope
1. The new offensive hires score points & give us a chance to beat teams like Iowa State
2. The recruiting picks up-commitments
3. Bedford lines up the defense appropriately this year to defend the offensive formations and players on the field.
1. Shore up the defense and be the Co-defensive coordinator
2. Get a QB and OL
3. Hire the right offensive coordinator at the same price he paid Watson (spread offense, recruiter, and great at using the players you have)
He failed at all of those things and our record reflects that. I hope
1. The new offensive hires score points & give us a chance to beat teams like Iowa State
2. The recruiting picks up-commitments
3. Bedford lines up the defense appropriately this year to defend the offensive formations and players on the field.
Disagree.
Defense improved year one, for example Thompson went from being famous for the OU tackling whiff gif to being drafted. But the 2 best guys at each level of the defense graduated or entered the draft early. 4 are in the NFL. Those guys were mostly replaced by a bunch of true freshmen thanks to Mack's empty cupboard. Think of how many guys started against Baylor that have never gone through Spring practice at Texas.
OL picked up 2 guys that started day one and earned Freshman All American honors. They had no idea Wittek wouldn't finish his course work at USC to transfer. While I agree that he shouldn't have kept Watson for year two, I understand bringing Watson in as Strong had a recruiting class to keep together and he wasn't hired until 4 weeks before LOI day thanks to our disfunction at the top decision making levels. See A&M hiring Mazzone this year for what happens when you wait until January to make staff changes at that level. They ended up with a Watson.
Recruiting- It has been shown repeatedly that Strong gets most of his commits in January. He likes to see Senior years. After seeing Mack fill up on maxed out suburban football factory kids in their Junior year I want to see how Strong's approach works.
I believe Strong WANTING TO WAIT TILL JANUARY is false. He offered a lot of these guys way back that he will take up to signing day. If they had wanted to come THEN he would have taken them. It may not be Strongs CHOICE but the way it HAS to be now because of the lack of wins. He took others commits why would he NOT take these higher rated guys earlier? It is not his choice so much as he is doing the best he can with what he has.......which if it turns out right might look great on signing day!
Vahe was Macks guy by the way. The rest of your post is (you may be right about Strong wanting to wait to) really good.
If Vahe was a true frosh this year, how could he have been Macks guy since Mack has been gone for a cpl years to this point? He would have been recruited last year which was Strongs 1st at Texas..... not sure i understand how he is Macks guys......
