So, YOU'RE taking HS player evaluations over actual snaps in CFB? Talk about weak.
Bomb is alive and well
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That's called coaching them up Cinderella. Geez. The talent was there. Good grief
Right, like they coached up the 2 freshmen All-Americans last season whom took positions away from Mack Brown era players on the OL and a third is doing the same at Center. If in fact these players were so talented, why didn't anyone want them? Most of the departures spent less than a year with Charlie. He didn't F up anyone's opportunity to move on and be successful.
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Is your argument that Charlie Strong can't coach?
From the outside it seems you are implying that Texas had a bunch of top talent that went 11-14 under Strong.
So is that what we are actually discussing here? Or just arguing over the evaluation of talent?
Stick to the football talk, it makes your argument look better because even if you are 100% correct, you lose it with name calling.
Much of the criticism of Mack's recruiting in his later years was that it was lazy.
1. Preferred to take recruits early in the process and then discourage visits, which pumped the early class ranks and tied up some talent, but which eliminated the benefit of further evaluations in the senior year and some feel enabled an entitled attitude among recruits that resulted in a slack work ethic for that senior year and beyond.
2. Would take commits from highly ranked athletes to pump the class numbers, but neglected roster management and so did not match the incoming talent to the existing or planned scheme or team needs. Particularly poor recruiting at quarterback, and the offensive and defensive lines, resulted in insufficient numbers of players at these positions, forcing premature playing of freshmen who should be red-shirted to allow optimum mental and physical development.
In addition, there has been criticism of the leadership in the locker room, which allowed many to skate through without putting in the work. Also, a tendency of coach Brown to play those with seniority, while more talented underclassmen would need to wait their turn to get playing time, rather than simply playing the individual providing the best chance of victory.
Coach Strong in contrast has a solid record (at Louisville) of identifying then coaching talented individuals to realize their physical and mental potential, while achieving a college degree and in some cases an NFL career. Coach Strong has recruited well, but still needs to prove himself here at Texas, and he will get a good test with the Irish soon enough.
Hook 'em
1. Preferred to take recruits early in the process and then discourage visits, which pumped the early class ranks and tied up some talent, but which eliminated the benefit of further evaluations in the senior year and some feel enabled an entitled attitude among recruits that resulted in a slack work ethic for that senior year and beyond.
2. Would take commits from highly ranked athletes to pump the class numbers, but neglected roster management and so did not match the incoming talent to the existing or planned scheme or team needs. Particularly poor recruiting at quarterback, and the offensive and defensive lines, resulted in insufficient numbers of players at these positions, forcing premature playing of freshmen who should be red-shirted to allow optimum mental and physical development.
In addition, there has been criticism of the leadership in the locker room, which allowed many to skate through without putting in the work. Also, a tendency of coach Brown to play those with seniority, while more talented underclassmen would need to wait their turn to get playing time, rather than simply playing the individual providing the best chance of victory.
Coach Strong in contrast has a solid record (at Louisville) of identifying then coaching talented individuals to realize their physical and mental potential, while achieving a college degree and in some cases an NFL career. Coach Strong has recruited well, but still needs to prove himself here at Texas, and he will get a good test with the Irish soon enough.
Hook 'em
Maybe I look at things a little different then Texas fans. When Heupel was let go I was thankful because in my opinion the offense was stale, seemed predictable etc. but I never once tried to give Lincoln Riley a free pass and act like I didn't expect OU to have a potent offense immediately. I mean I don't hear OU fans saying we didn't win the NC because Riley was left with questionable talent even though OU's recruiting the last 3 or 4 years has been down. It's almost like Texas fans are scared to admit that Strong has not done as well as he should have?
Without a quarterback while fighting behind depleted lines, the team is hamstrung from the start [admittedly, some missteps and growing pains with the coaching staff too]. With a serviceable quarterback, 8 wins this year and 10 next year gets us back to where we belong, and it will also be nice to knock OU on its a@@ three years running.
Hook 'em
He hasn't and he carries the blame quite well. He knows he needs to get it done. I watched the squad deteriorate from 2010 until he came in and began flipping the roster which now only has 12 Mack Brown signatures since folks like to credit Strong with the 2014 class even though he arrived 1 month before NSD. He had no choice but to hold that class together as best he could.
The last 2 classes, all Strong and company...are the best we have seen in a while from top to bottom. I hate to give him a pass, but this guy knows what he is doing and I think they're still a year away from really making any noise.
Bell....I must be slow....in looking over your list....I cant read your list. You said you listed them, but I cant see it....help a guy out....did you put on a link to a list that I cant open?
Go to my 3rd post on the first page of this thread. I am responding to your post but you have to click in the box of your quote am responding to and it will open to allow you to see my bold typed responses. I guess I kind of screwed up but was trying to respond to each person on his list and was unsure how to do it.
Bell....you do know I am OLDHORN....it was a bit of a strain to keep my concentration long enough to count down to your third post. Having done that I clicked and clicked but got no list. I know that you must have a list because as far as I can remember you have never lied to me...( well...you have tried to bullshit me a little)...I just cant open it.
I need easier instructions
I need easier instructions
Got it!...I clicked on the fuzzy part at the bottom and it opened. I got your list.
Thats all you got?..The whole point was not how highly were these guys rated out of HS, It was how good of a football player were they and could they contribute. Fact is....just as Bomb said...Strong didnt have much to work with. Careers lost to injury were not Macks fault....but they arent on Strong either. Failure to develop highly ranked guys before he got here are not on Strong either. What is the matter?
Thats all you got?..The whole point was not how highly were these guys rated out of HS, It was how good of a football player were they and could they contribute. Fact is....just as Bomb said...Strong didnt have much to work with. Careers lost to injury were not Macks fault....but they arent on Strong either. Failure to develop highly ranked guys before he got here are not on Strong either. What is the matter?
Oldhorn recruiting is done on kids coming out of hs as you know. Mack did not have the luxury for Charlie's benefit to look in a crystal ball and see how these kids work ethic etc were. He based his decisions on the same basis that the other big time coaches that recruited these same kids did. Look at the offer lists. If Strong was convinced it was a lack of talent then Wickline wouldn't be where he is.
I appreciate ND's grammar and argument lessons on this thread. A true renaissance man.
Connected Texas people noted several years ago that Mack and the majority of his staff (Muschamp being a notable exception) had come to rely heavily on recruiting website rankings in his later years -- particularly on his friend Bobby Burton's advice. (Bobby was one of the geniuses who saw the next VY in Tyrone Swoopes at one point.) The offensive recruiting was alarming in many respects as far back as 2008.
Recruiting rankings are predictive in the aggregate, but when you don't bother to do even basic due diligence on recruits, it's not hard to have a high bust rate -- one far higher than those of coaches who actually engage in comprehensive evaluation of the players they are considering for offers. Ten impressive plays on a Rivals highlight reel won't tell you that the guy has an unimpressive motor most of the time, is a poor teammate with an enormous sense of entitlement, can't lay off the weed, is a headcase, etc. You actually have to do some work to find out that the talented guy you see on the highlight reel comes with those red flags. When you don't do the work, you end up recruiting and signing a lot of guys like Kennedy Estelle, Desmond Harrison, Rami Hammad, Trey Lmao, and so on.
Anyone who knows jack sh*t about football can look at the upperclassmen on our roster and see that the vast majority are nowhere nearly as talented as most of the guys in the 2015 and 2016 classes. And, unsurprisingly, most of these older guys are getting buried on the depth chart by younger guys with very obviously superior talent.
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Fellas relax. Dozer is just afraid. He is afraid of what Charlie Strong can do at Texas when he has a roster full of legit D1 talent. If he can convince himself (and attempt to convince us in the process) that CS inherited a truly talented roster than he can continue to believe the Strong is a bad coach who can't win with talent. Deep down he knows this is not the case and he is afraid of the Charlie Strong Choo Choo train that is heading down the tracks!
Uh, it seems like the Charlie Strong Choo Choo train derailed a couple of OC's back? The good new is, Bwilk55, for teams like OU and Texas with the basic talent they both pull in every year both teams should be good for AT LEAST 7 or 8 wins a year with decent coaching. So, with the new OC bringing new ideas and the D getting a few more stops it's not hard to fathom a better Texas team this year. I like the young qb Buechele (sp?) And I think you would agree it's a major year for Coach Strong to show major improvements in the 8+ win category. Wouldn't you agree. BTW, I like that "Charlie Strong Choo Choo Train" it's kind of catchy, I may borrow that if you don't mind.
Nah, I hear the train a comin' / It's rolling round the bend / And I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when.....
Watson at OC was a mistake, no one is arguing that. It was a reasonable hire considering the success at Louisville.
This thread's topic was based on the fact (or opinion I should say - Thanks NDFarley) that Texas did not have basic talent at OL. Due to injuries, lack of talent despite high recruiting rankings or behavioral issues there wasn't much to work with. This was the case at other important positions as well (QB for example).
Strong still lacks a top to bottom talented roster. The Freshman and Sophomore classes are solid. A handful of upperclassmen have really stepped up and will provide leadership and fill some important roles on the field. This should be an 8+ win season, I agree but the Choo Choo train is still gaining steam and most here expect the big jump to be next year (with the following year being the first time this team has legit talent in all 4 classes).
BTW the choo choo train is not my own creation, it comes from Chuck F'n Strong twitter. Feel free to us it.
a head coach has to be able to assemble a quality cohesive team of coaches. Charlie has failed miserably in that regard. Maybe the 3rd try is the charm? The confidence you show in him is toataly unfounded at this time. Butch Davis expresses it better than me. He says " I don't want a team that plays with emotion, that's a team on a roller coaster. I want my teams to play with passion. Texas was on a roller coaster last year. This year may be different if you're that confident in Charlie, power to you.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-daily-post/is-there-an-internal-struggle-to-oust-charlie-strong/
The struggle is real... and his hands were tied by his AD http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/col...-chad-morris-tom-herman-offensive-coordinator Watson was a fall back and it failed, but...it wouldn't have been much better with the young minds at the time.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-dai...rlie-strong-with-nothing-and-heres-the-proof/
Jeff Howe: November 23, 2015
I didn't read the article, but I don't think I need to knowing what I know. I won't deny that Steve Patterson didn't support his head football coach the way the athletic director at Texas should, but I think Mike Perrin has worked his damnedest to make sure that some of these issues aren't issues anymore and haven't been. On top of that, Arthur Johnson has been in Charlie's corner and is the guy who Charlie has been able to go to at the administrative level.
With all of that said, at some point it's not the fault of Steve Patterson, Mack Brown or anyone else who folks want to blame for Texas' shortcomings. At some point the current regime is going to have to get it done and Strong hasn't done himself many favors based on the decisions he's made.
Yes, this was a bigger rebuild than anyone thought. Yes, Texas does lack the kind of talent throughout the roster most would expect. But at the end of the day the money folks and those with a voice aren't going to tolerate another season in 2016 that looks anything remotely resembling the previous two, nor should they.
The offensive coordinator situation was a mess from the start, but Strong wanted to hire Tom Herman and got close enough at one point to where I thought it was going to happen. But Strong either settled for Watson, panicked and didn't think he could get anyone else he really wanted, or simply put all of his trust in a guy who ultimately fell well short success when leading the offense.
That's one of several decisions Strong hasn't handled properly. He's going to go into his third year likely having gotten rid of every member of his original offensive staff, which is never a good thing.
The administration is going to give him a chance to make it right this offseason. It's on Strong now to make the right hires to make this thing work.
Howe sorta new what he was talking about.... Strong didn't panic, he was limited on expenditures. See below, this is some of the BS he had to deal with when it cam to Steve:
"One of the things that pissed off Strong the most was Patterson and chief revenue officer Steve Hank's attempt to cut the coat, tie and fitted dress shirt and pants for the players to wear when traveling and on game days - when it's time for business. The cost is roughly $20,000, I was told, and Patterson/Hank said the players could wear their Nike sweats.
Patterson/Hank used senior executive associate AD Arthur Johnson as the intermediary on this, and I'm told Charlie told Arthur there was no way he would agree to cutting the coat and tie attire for the players.
Strong feels it's important to dress for business and also knows some of the kids have never owned a coat and tie before (and that they needed to understand there were times you needed to get dressed up to conduct business).
So Patterson/Hank countered (through Johnson) that UT would only provide the fitted attire for new players and that the rest of the team could wear the attire they received previously. Strong replied that the players' bodies were changing/developing and that each player would need to be fitted each school year.
Then, Strong finally relayed to Patterson/Hank that if he - himself - had to pay for the coat and tie attire for the team out of his own pocket, that's what he'd do. Patterson/Hank relented."
The struggle is real... and his hands were tied by his AD http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/col...-chad-morris-tom-herman-offensive-coordinator Watson was a fall back and it failed, but...it wouldn't have been much better with the young minds at the time.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/the-dai...rlie-strong-with-nothing-and-heres-the-proof/
Jeff Howe: November 23, 2015
I didn't read the article, but I don't think I need to knowing what I know. I won't deny that Steve Patterson didn't support his head football coach the way the athletic director at Texas should, but I think Mike Perrin has worked his damnedest to make sure that some of these issues aren't issues anymore and haven't been. On top of that, Arthur Johnson has been in Charlie's corner and is the guy who Charlie has been able to go to at the administrative level.
With all of that said, at some point it's not the fault of Steve Patterson, Mack Brown or anyone else who folks want to blame for Texas' shortcomings. At some point the current regime is going to have to get it done and Strong hasn't done himself many favors based on the decisions he's made.
Yes, this was a bigger rebuild than anyone thought. Yes, Texas does lack the kind of talent throughout the roster most would expect. But at the end of the day the money folks and those with a voice aren't going to tolerate another season in 2016 that looks anything remotely resembling the previous two, nor should they.
The offensive coordinator situation was a mess from the start, but Strong wanted to hire Tom Herman and got close enough at one point to where I thought it was going to happen. But Strong either settled for Watson, panicked and didn't think he could get anyone else he really wanted, or simply put all of his trust in a guy who ultimately fell well short success when leading the offense.
That's one of several decisions Strong hasn't handled properly. He's going to go into his third year likely having gotten rid of every member of his original offensive staff, which is never a good thing.
The administration is going to give him a chance to make it right this offseason. It's on Strong now to make the right hires to make this thing work.
Howe sorta new what he was talking about.... Strong didn't panic, he was limited on expenditures. See below, this is some of the BS he had to deal with when it cam to Steve:
"One of the things that pissed off Strong the most was Patterson and chief revenue officer Steve Hank's attempt to cut the coat, tie and fitted dress shirt and pants for the players to wear when traveling and on game days - when it's time for business. The cost is roughly $20,000, I was told, and Patterson/Hank said the players could wear their Nike sweats.
Patterson/Hank used senior executive associate AD Arthur Johnson as the intermediary on this, and I'm told Charlie told Arthur there was no way he would agree to cutting the coat and tie attire for the players.
Strong feels it's important to dress for business and also knows some of the kids have never owned a coat and tie before (and that they needed to understand there were times you needed to get dressed up to conduct business).
So Patterson/Hank countered (through Johnson) that UT would only provide the fitted attire for new players and that the rest of the team could wear the attire they received previously. Strong replied that the players' bodies were changing/developing and that each player would need to be fitted each school year.
Then, Strong finally relayed to Patterson/Hank that if he - himself - had to pay for the coat and tie attire for the team out of his own pocket, that's what he'd do. Patterson/Hank relented."
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Even if Texas didn't "coach up" players, if there was talent players would have been drafted. Players are drafted off projection more than anything these days.
A great example of this is Ifedi for the aggys. There were numerous reports that he had no technique and that he received terrible coaching. Ifedi was still drafted in the first round.
If you have talent NFL teams will draft you. Regardless of coaching or not.
Feel free to post any evidence that proves otherwise. All I see you doing is attacking me and not my actual argument, but that's par for the course with you.
I don't even post on this site anymore and I'm still so far in your head that you are attacking me and not actually engaging in a discussion.
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Haha well looky here I am glad you could check back in and realize that another of your fairytales has been debunked.......Good grief dude, the excuses have to end at some point and I have a feeling this is the magic year. Either Charlie get things going with his 3rd OC or the experiment is over in my opinion. You're a legend in your own mind
Dozer...you keep saying you debunked the arguement, but you must have missed the point. You debunked nothing. The whole point was that there was no DECENT player on the Oline other than Perkins....It does not matter or even figure into the argument how highly ranked the guys were....not a damned one of them went on to contribute anything anywhere, ....total fail
Haha well looky here I am glad you could check back in and realize that another of your fairytales has been debunked.......Good grief dude, the excuses have to end at some point and I have a feeling this is the magic year. Either Charlie get things going with his 3rd OC or the experiment is over in my opinion. You're a legend in your own mind
Do you make actual arguments or just ramble with stuff like "another of your fairytales"?
The original post lays out the facts and you haven't even remotely engaged it. Again, not surprising with you.
I'm not going to derail the thread anymore for those that actually want to engage the OP. I'm sure my name will continue to be in your mouth even though I don't post here anymore. It's pretty funny to me really.
Again How is that on Mack? He certainly offered and brought in recruits that were highly coveted by other bigtime schools. A simple review of the offer list will confirm. Were the other schools wrong too? How they turned out is not Mack's problem. How can it be if he's gone? With all due respect oldhorn, mixing Viagra and orange koolaid are apparently effecting your basic reasoning skills.
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Dozer.....we apparently are talking past each other.We are discussing completely different things. I will type slower...The OP was not blaming Mack,,,,The whole point was that of all the olinemen,,,only one was a player. I wont be discussing this again....because you have no idea what I am talking about.
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