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OT: HOF vote Jeff Bagwell

he won't get in first ballot due to steroidial issues. he will get in eventually. and he should. a buddy of mine is a big astros guy, and i think it's preposterous that biggio got in and he is baffled by my thinking. but bagwell is deserving.

they already allowed piazza in--- they lose any holier-than-thou platform with him. let clemens and bonds in, and let the floodgates open
 
he won't get in first ballot due to steroidial issues. he will get in eventually. and he should. a buddy of mine is a big astros guy, and i think it's preposterous that biggio got in and he is baffled by my thinking. but bagwell is deserving.

they already allowed piazza in--- they lose any holier-than-thou platform with him. let clemens and bonds in, and let the floodgates open
This is actually his 7th time up for vote. Missed by 21 votes last year, right under needed 75%. He will get in today. He admitted to using creatine when it was actually ok/legal to use. Suspected steroids, yes, but never proven or on any report.
 
So much truth. I can't even believe it was a debate for anyone.

Mike Mussina deserves to be in as well, but there are people that don't think so.

i guess being slightly above average for a long time makes one hall worthy?? c'mon. it's the hall of fame, not the hall of pretty good
 
i guess being slightly above average for a long time makes one hall worthy?? c'mon. it's the hall of fame, not the hall of pretty good
At some point saying things that are utterly ridiculous will hurt your credibility to discuss the same matters in the future. You may have crossed that threshold.

Slightly above average is a ridiculous statement. The guy personifies baseball the way it was supposed to be played. And oh by the way....he also has the ever so popular stats to support the HOF.
 
The steroid guys make HOF vote a mess. Best player and pitcher of the era are both dirty but will get in soon. Pudge, Piazza, & Bagwell were all guys people think used. If Bonds and Clemons get in, and they will. What do you do with Sosa, Palmero, Manny etc? They would have been shoe ins if not for PEDs. How do you let some cheaters in, and not all "deserving" cheaters? Craig Biggio has better stats than Rafael Palmero, wtf?

Tim Raines was a coke head and got in, so I have no idea what the rules are.

Curt Schilling is being kept out for his far right politics. It either needs to be 100% about on field play, or not.
 
There was NEVER any link between Bagwell and steroids...not one shred of evidence.Yet, you say he was a "suspected" user. Palmiero, Bonds, A Rod..Sosa...these guys were all proven users.

and....anyone that says Biggio just got in because he was "above average" for a long time(that even sounds silly...sounds like how you describe a star player) has not looked at the comparative stats.
 
There was NEVER any link between Bagwell and steroids...not one shred of evidence.Yet, you say he was a "suspected" user. Palmiero, Bonds, A Rod..Sosa...these guys were all proven users.

and....anyone that says Biggio just got in because he was "above average" for a long time(that even sounds silly...sounds like how you describe a star player) has not looked at the comparative stats.
Bagwell, Piazza, and Pudge were suspected users. I don't think that is very controversial. If Bagwell and Piaza were not suspected, they would have been 1st ballot guys. Maybe they weren't dirty, but many seem to think so. Not pretending I know.
Not the same as Bonds, Sosa, Clemons, McGwire, Palmero or A-Rod. No doubt this second group was dirty.

I just wonder what happens when Bonds or Clemons get in, does that mean they all get in? What about Pete Rose?
 
when he played his 43rd year, 42 of which were on sub-par teams.

we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. i know what i saw, and what i saw was a player that makes me go "....eh..."

bagwell was a star. pudge was a star. randy johnson, star. curt schilling, pedro martinez, stars. biggio? you honestly think that dude was better than dale murphy? the guy wasn't better than tim raines and he got in before raines while on the same ballot! why? because he stuck around long enough to surpass some manufactured threshold?

again, agree to disagree
 
ok...we disagree. Biggio was quite a star. How many players made the All Star team at multiple positions? He played the game at an elite level for many,many years. How many players had more runs scored than Biggio?...He is in the top 10 I believe in doubles...Besides...He might be the only player in history that could truely steal first base.

and...I absolutely believe he was better than Dale Murphey, although you simply cannot compare players at different positions. I will give you that Biggio did not play CF as well as Murphey, but he played it damned well .How would Murphey done at second base...or catcher for that matter.

Baseball is the best game to argue because it has the best stats for players so it can have the best arguments about players.You have well grounded arguments....they just arent as good as mine.
 
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when he played his 43rd year, 42 of which were on sub-par teams.

we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. i know what i saw, and what i saw was a player that makes me go "....eh..."

bagwell was a star. pudge was a star. randy johnson, star. curt schilling, pedro martinez, stars. biggio? you honestly think that dude was better than dale murphy? the guy wasn't better than tim raines and he got in before raines while on the same ballot! why? because he stuck around long enough to surpass some manufactured threshold?

again, agree to disagree

43rd year? News flash but nobody gets 3000 hits in 10 seasons... It took Ty Cobb 13 162 game seasons and he was the fastest to do it. Biggio did it faster than 7 others and only 30 in history have ever accomplished the feat, all of whom who were eligible being in the HOF.

An all star at multiple positions, gold gloves, 3000 hits etc. He has the stats to back it up. Sorry you don't like him but he excelled all over the field and backed it up in the batters box.
 
Biggio may be meh to you , but here is his ranking in all the categories I could find against OTHER HOF second basemen

* 3rd in hits
*2nd in home runs
* 8 in RBI
*First in runs scored
*6th in stolen bases.

The above is Biggio's position among second basemen in the HOF. If the man is no worse than the 8th best among players at his position ...ever... that were deemed worthy of the HOF, how in the world could anyone doubt his worthiness to be in that Hall?



and you think he just got those records because he played longer than anyone?.....How long do you think the other guys played?...look it up....Biggio played 20 years....many of the others played more than 20 ( Joe Morgan for instance) and most of the others played 19 years. In fact, only Jackie Robinson and Ryan Sandberg played much less ( 10 and 16 years respectively)

You want to dis Biggio at least do the research.
 
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DC3 is trying to stir the pot. First, the Astros were in the playoffs for 6 of 9 years starting in1997. Second, players are judged by the position they play. The list of second baseman with better stats is pretty small.
They also give credit to good OBP players. In particular lead-off hitters. 4 gold gloves, five silver sluggers, All star at two different positions. All-time right-handed doubles leader. Among the best all-time in extra base hits. Yeah he was "pretty good."
 
The list of second baseman with better stats is pretty small.

small indeed....as you can from what I posted...the list of HOF second basemen with more HR's is 1...the list with more hits has 2...the list of more runs scored is non existent because he is # 1
 
I grew up watching the Killer B's. When I was younger I modeled my batting stance after Bagwell.

You couldn't ask for a better role model than Biggio. Did great things off the field and really played the game as it should be played. Truly hustled out every play.
 
when he played his 43rd year, 42 of which were on sub-par teams.

we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this. i know what i saw, and what i saw was a player that makes me go "....eh..."

bagwell was a star. pudge was a star. randy johnson, star. curt schilling, pedro martinez, stars. biggio? you honestly think that dude was better than dale murphy? the guy wasn't better than tim raines and he got in before raines while on the same ballot! why? because he stuck around long enough to surpass some manufactured threshold?

again, agree to disagree

Dale Murphy? He played 2 years less than Biggio and has 300 less doubles and almost 1,000 less hits. Not to mention that Biggio has a lifetime .291 avg to Murphy's .265.
 
and played in an era that wasn't nearly as hitter friendly. won a couple mvp's (which biggio never sniffed). was more-or-less the face of the sport for a 3-5 year run, whereas biggio could go into the mall and go unnoticed
 
and for those bragging about biggio in comparison to other second basemen-- it's not a list that typically catches the best players. i mean, sandberg, robinson, alomar, richardson...then who? again, clearly we are not changing anybody's minds with this discussion.
 
and played in an era that wasn't nearly as hitter friendly. won a couple mvp's (which biggio never sniffed). was more-or-less the face of the sport for a 3-5 year run, whereas biggio could go into the mall and go unnoticed

"Due to the relatively high elevation of the Atlanta area (situated at the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains), Fulton County Stadium boasted the highest elevation in baseball when it opened, at 1,050 feet (320 m) above sea level. It retained this distinction until the Colorado Rockies were born in 1993. The high elevation made it favorable to home run hitters, resulting in the nickname "The Launching Pad."

"Throughout its history, the Astrodome was known as a pitcher's park. The power alleys were never shorter than 370 feet (113 m) from the plate; on at least two occasions they were as far as 390 feet (119 m). Over time, it gave up fewer home runs than any other park in the National League.[6] The Astrodome's reputation as a pitcher's park continued even in the mid-1980s, when the fences were moved in closer than the Metrodome, which was long reckoned as a hitter's park."
 
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Dale Murphey did not make the all decade team of the 1980's....nor did he make the top 20 best player list
 
DC3.Oppg: "I did not have sex with that woman... Read my lips, no new taxes!"

He just keeps spouting nonsense while completely ignoring every single statistical fact listed that shows Biggio among the best of all time.

Yes, we will just have to disagree... right. You just keep saying whatever you want. Its not gonna change the facts, which are overwhelming in Biggios favor.
 
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