The NBA Finals start on Thursday
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If you want to frame it in those terms, both are "losers."
They didn't win the same amount of championships. Jordan won 6. James won 3. This isn't like Brady/Montana. Jordan doubled James's total.
Aside from that, if you don't win a championship, then it doesn't really matter. If you lost in the finals or the semi finals, you didn't win a championship. Neither is "better" than the other. For example, San Antonio lost to Golden State in the semi finals. Cleveland is about to lose to Golden State in the finals. They both lost to the same team. Cleveland just happened not to run into Golden State until later in the bracket. That's not "better."
Neither one is better. We are talking about "the greatest." You don't measure the "greatest" by failure. "My failure was better than your failure!!!!!!"
Yeah, that's the point. He hasn't won anything without his rent-a-team. Look at it this way. Imagine if Jordan had been on a team of Michael Jordan, Isaiah Thomas, and Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Then imagine it was a team of Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, and Hakeem Olajuwon. A) Imagine what Jordan could have done with that. B) Imagine what everyone would think of Jordan if he only won 3 of 7.
My hypothetical doesn't qualify that you were always beaten by the eventual champion. Hell you could have not even made the playoffs in other years.
I'm not saying my analogy is dependent on beating the eventual champion. What I'm pointing out is, bragging that "I made it farther than you before I Iost!!!" is not relevant when you are making an argument about greatness. As another poster pointed out, the only reason Cleveland and Miami made it to so many finals is because they played in the East. If they played in the West, they would have gone out early several times.
Wilt had a career 51% Free Throw Percentage. He towered over inferior players. Great points all, including the fact that he never had the team around him that Russell had.
From his rookie year LeBron was better than Kobe, and he didn't have a hall of fame center to carry him. He literally carried that no name Cavs team to multiple finals. Maybe Kobe after his 3rd or 4th year could have done the same, but Kobe can't legitimately say hes better than LeBron. One on one Id take LeBron easily.
Well 's not over yet the Cavs managed to avoid a sweep. Kevin Love and the Cavs bench stopped throwing up air balls and the Cavs rolled. Actually the beat the Warriors at their own game setting an NBA Finals record hitting on 24 three point shots. Also, they never trailed. They set an NBA Finals record scoring 86 points in the first half.
This one was for pride. In the history of playoff series sports, baseball, basketball, and hockey, only one team has been down 3 games to 0 and come from behind to win. That was when the Red Sox came from behind to beat the Yankees in 2004. However in NBA Finals history no team had ever been down 3 games to 1 to come back and win the title until the Cavs did it last year against the Warriors and the Warriors had the best w/l record in NBA history.
Lebron James and Kyrie Irving carried that team on their shoulders and the city of Cleveland finally had a championship team. Can they do it again? Well coming from behind down 3 games to 1 is one thing, but being down 3 games to 0 is a whole different animal. If you ask me point blank if the Cavs will do it I would have to say no. But the one man in the NBA who can do it is Lebron James. Kyrie Irving will do his part and if the rest of the Cav team will show up and stop throwing up air balls who knows?
This one was for pride. In the history of playoff series sports, baseball, basketball, and hockey, only one team has been down 3 games to 0 and come from behind to win. That was when the Red Sox came from behind to beat the Yankees in 2004. However in NBA Finals history no team had ever been down 3 games to 1 to come back and win the title until the Cavs did it last year against the Warriors and the Warriors had the best w/l record in NBA history.
Lebron James and Kyrie Irving carried that team on their shoulders and the city of Cleveland finally had a championship team. Can they do it again? Well coming from behind down 3 games to 1 is one thing, but being down 3 games to 0 is a whole different animal. If you ask me point blank if the Cavs will do it I would have to say no. But the one man in the NBA who can do it is Lebron James. Kyrie Irving will do his part and if the rest of the Cav team will show up and stop throwing up air balls who knows?
The Cavs needed a record setting performance to win that game. They wont reproduce those results. I expect Golden State to take game 5.
Ill never stop LOLing over the "he can't bench 180" criticism.
I haven't been making argument regarding Kobe Bryant. It's irrelevant to the conversation.
James didn't carry Cleveland to multiple finals. He made it once, in 2007, where they were swept by San Antonio. All of James's other appearances were with his superstar teams, Miami with Wade and Bosh, and Cleveland with Irving and Love.
Tristan Thompson and JR Smith had big games. Still didn't help.
There is no question that the Warriors were the better team. I can see why their chance of winning was like 92 on a scale of 100. In this case I was too much of a LeBron James fan. It was over when the Cavs lost game 3. LeBron is human and at the end of that game he and Kyrie Irving ran out of gas. The rest of the Cleveland starters played good enough but their bench was nonexistent. They scored like 7 points total. By comparison Andre Iguodala came off the bench and scored 20 points by himself. The player's they added at mid season did nothing. If the Cavs don't improve their bench Lebron and Kyrie will probably run out of gas in the Finals again.
I was disappointed in the way Kevin Durant handled his departure. He told the people in OKC how much he loved it there but we now know that he was tweeting about joining the Warriors halfway through his last season in OKC. But LeBron did the same thing when he left Cleveland a few years ago. Their built for the long haul most of their good players are in their twenties and Lebron will be 33 next season. Steve Kerr is an incredible coach. Takes over at 47 never coached a day in his life. Spent a couple of season as the Suns gm and that was it. Before he will probably joining Auerbach, Riley, Jackson, and Pop as the greatest coaches of all time. When KD signed with the Warriors they created of what I call a Dream Team. I like that term better than Super Team. DT reminds me of the Olympic team in 1992.
Kevin really had little pressure on him all season. He could concentrate on playing and not having the carry the team. And the results showed. Scoring at least 30 points in every Finals game was very Jordanesque. He deserved the Finals MVP.
And as Longhorn I was glad to see one of boys win an NBA title. That makes two in row in the NBA Finals.
Hookem
I was disappointed in the way Kevin Durant handled his departure. He told the people in OKC how much he loved it there but we now know that he was tweeting about joining the Warriors halfway through his last season in OKC. But LeBron did the same thing when he left Cleveland a few years ago. Their built for the long haul most of their good players are in their twenties and Lebron will be 33 next season. Steve Kerr is an incredible coach. Takes over at 47 never coached a day in his life. Spent a couple of season as the Suns gm and that was it. Before he will probably joining Auerbach, Riley, Jackson, and Pop as the greatest coaches of all time. When KD signed with the Warriors they created of what I call a Dream Team. I like that term better than Super Team. DT reminds me of the Olympic team in 1992.
Kevin really had little pressure on him all season. He could concentrate on playing and not having the carry the team. And the results showed. Scoring at least 30 points in every Finals game was very Jordanesque. He deserved the Finals MVP.
And as Longhorn I was glad to see one of boys win an NBA title. That makes two in row in the NBA Finals.
Hookem
That's always been the case. It was was true of Miami as well. That's because it takes so much money for the "Big 3" that there isn't much left over to round out the bench. The problem has reared its head in more than one finals.
One radio show I listened to today said Cleveland is now in salary cap hell - overpaying for Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love among others. They will only be able to improve around the edges (a David West past his prime type). And with LeBron still great but turning 33, chances of catching Golden State are slim. So let the LeBron to LA rumors begin.
True that. But you know who has been able to build a team of outstanding supporting players with low paying contracts? The Spurs. But can the Cavs find players like that? Doubtful. They're going to be $28 million over the salary cap. They're going to have to find a way to dump players outside of the starting lineup.
Which is one of the inherent flaws in the concept. The Warriors were able to avoid the problem because they acquired many of their core players via draft or trade, before they hit the free agent market at superstar status.
Yeah you can't sustain via free agency. You can make a short run but eventually the bill is going to come due. The Warriors already had an all natural home grown championship caliber team last season and were champions the year before that.
They may have been the first to do what they did, but looking back at those Miami teams and it seems silly to think of them as some kind of force. They were incredibly flawed teams.
Well the Heat won 2 titles with some good role players. Guys like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and especially Ray Allen. And do you remember that weird looking center with all the tats on him? I can't remember his name but that man was inked from his neck to his toes. Really
But he was a defensive force around the basket. The Cavs don't have anyone remotely resembling those guys.You have to find some guys who will take a pay cut for the chance to play for the title.
Well the Heat won 2 titles with some good role players. Guys like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and especially Ray Allen. And do you remember that weird looking center with all the tats on him? I can't remember his name but that man was inked from his neck to his toes. Really
You have to find some guys who will take a pay cut for the chance to play for the title.
I think you are misremembering those heat squads because they produced two titles. The Cavs are also battling a much better team in the Warriors than the Heat championship teams beat. Those Heat teams wouldn't stand any more of a chance against this Warriors team than the Cavs did
Well the Heat won 2 titles with some good role players. Guys like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and especially Ray Allen. And do you remember that weird looking center with all the tats on him? I can't remember his name but that man was inked from his neck to his toes. Really
You have to find some guys who will take a pay cut for the chance to play for the title.
Ray Allen is a future Hall of Fame player, not a "role player." Mike Miller is a roll player. He's a 3 point specialist, kind of like Kyle Corver. You also have Tristan Thompson, much like Udonis Haslem.
Miami won two titles.......and also got dismantled in two other finals. To be honest, they were fortunate to win two titles. That bench was simply not good. Neither is Cleveland's bench.
Here's the bottom line. The real reason James has made it to 7 straight finals is that the East is so bad. There is a reason James has specifically avoided playing in the West. He wants a easier path to the finals every year. If he built his super teams in the West, he still would have made some finals, but not 7 straight.
Correct Ray Allen is a futer HOF players. But when he signed with Miami he was at the end of his career. He came off the bench and was signed at a bargain basement salary. There is no question that the Miami bench was much better than the one he has in Cleveland.
As for 7 straight Finals appearances and weak competition. Maybe but 7 straight years in the Finals is a hard thing to do. Very few have done it. But lets be honest. There were only three teams in the NBA who had a chance to win the title. The Cavs, the Warriors, and the Spurs and when Kawhi Leonard went down the Spurs, and lest be honest, fell apart. I don't see that changing next year. It is what it is.
And before this thread ends I want to give a shout out to Doris Burke. Imo, she is the best female sideline reporter I have ever seen, regardless of sport. A former basketball player herself she is capable of providing quality commentary. She does not have to do human interest stories because she's smarter than that. She's a good interviewer even Greg Popovich likes her. I've seen her do play by play, and analysis on NBA games. She is so much better than that punk Mark Jackson and annoying Jeff Van Gundy. Mike Breen is a quality play by play man. But put her next to him and get rid of MJ and JVG.
My .02 worth.
My .02 worth.
Is there a "no like" button? Can't stand her! (BTW - I agree with your assessment of Mark Jackson and Van Gundy). Give me Hubie!
BTW - Ray Allen hit the 3 at the buzzer after the Spurs missed several free throws in last 25 seconds of Game 6 - LeBron has one gimme championship that year.
Hubie is a tired 80 something who needs to retire. I saw him on tv he looks his age.
Add Popovich in there for me as well. Can't stand the guy. He's one of the biggest no class, rude, a-holes in sports today.
Um, yeah there is a question if Miami's bench was better than Cleveland's. Neither one was good. It's frankly laughable that you think Mike Miller and Udonis Haslem are good players. Go look at the box scores from Miami's finals and tell me how good that bench was.
Yeah........Go look at the box scores, and compare Miami's bench to the opponent's.
But they were still a lot better than Cleveland's. Good lord Lebron and Kyrie had to play 45 minutes that wouldn't have happened if they had any kind of bench.
Seriously?
Kyle Korver?
Deron Williams?
Richard Jefferson turned back the clock last year and made a solid contribution but this time he looked like the 37 year old player whose best days are behind him.
Channing Frye gets paid $7 mil and he doesn't even play what does that tell you?
Iman Shumpert?
One more time. In Game 5 the Cleveland bench scored 7 points total. Andre Iguodala came off the bench and scored 20 points by himself.
One more time. Lebron's bench in Miami was a lot better than the one he has now.
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