The NBA Finals start on Thursday

[outhereincali]

Like I said I would it is clearly obvious that I was wrong to pick the Cavs. As I said above, the Warriors are going to go 16/0 in the playoffs something never done before.

To put it in as few words as possible the Warriors are the closet team when to comes to a super team. It's like watching the Olympic team against Angola. Everybody on that team can shoot the ball and pass it.

Lebron and Kyrie Irving were just worn out at the end. They shot a combined 70% from the field, but the rest of the team shot less than 30%. Seriously. Kevin Love has had one good game on offense but last night he was mia. And I was shocked that Tristan Thompson did absolutely nothing. They've had to carry the team by themselves and now matter how great Lebron and KI are their team isn't going to win without some kind, any kind, of help from the rest of the team. Maybe they can win on Friday and salvage some pride, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[diadevic]

I'm not saying making and losing 7 championships is better than winning them, but if 2 teams/players won the same amount of rings and 1 of them also played for but lost several other championships they would have had a better career. You are completely ignoring the fact that the years that said team/player didn't make the finals are more of a failure than making the finals and losing.

But they didn't win the same number of championships. Jordan has 6. Lebron has 3, with 4 (soon to be 5) defeats. On your last sentence - honest debate - looking back at who the Cavs and Heat beat over the years just to get to the finals - is there any one series you remember? Any time there was any competition? Anything that you can sell me on to convince me that just making the finals was a great accomplishment? Getting there is great, but he played in the weaker division. Had he been getting there by running through the West in the last decade, I would applaud.

 

[outhereincali]

One thing I want to say in regards to Lebron. Yes he's 3/5 in the NBA Finals. But let's look at the ones he lost. In 2007 carried the Cavs in his fist NBA Finals against the Spurs but the rest of his team was lousy and not surprisingly the Cavs were swept.

Two years ago Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love were out for the Finals. Pretty much on his own Lebron played well enough to lead the Cavs to win two games, they were even ahead two to one at one point but they ended up losing 4 to 2.

Lebron was pretty much classless in the 2011 Finals against the Mavs. The things he said the way he acted was inexcusable. But what seems to be forgotten is that Dwayne Wade acted the same way. DW pretty much dissed Dirk when the Heat won the Finals. And he did it again but this time it came back to haunt him. He flat out choked in Game 4 of those Finals. Just sayin.

And against the Spurs three years ago they were just flat out better but that was true against the rest of the league not just the Heat.

And its the same thing this year in regards to the Warriors.

But with the exception of the loss to the Mavs Lebron has had a mediocre supporting class. In the ones he won he had it but in the ones he lost they were nowhere to be found.

Like the old adage says no matter how great one player is he can't win if his teammates are lousy after all it is a team game.

 

[bubba2023]

But they didn't win the same number of championships. Jordan has 6. Lebron has 3, with 4 (soon to be 5) defeats. On your last sentence - honest debate - looking back at who the Cavs and Heat beat over the years just to get to the finals - is there any one series you remember? Any time there was any competition? Anything that you can sell me on to convince me that just making the finals was a great accomplishment? Getting there is great, but he played in the weaker division. Had he been getting there by running through the West in the last decade, I would applaud.

I agree. Jordan > James. My only quibble was saying Jordan never lost in the finals as an argument for him, I don't like that argument, but Jordan had more wins so it trumps that anyways. The rest of the stuff is the typical debate points when talking about different eras and I don't disagree with it.

Topdecktiger is saying that winning 3 finals and losing 3 others is worse than winning 3 and losing 0. Which makes no sense to me. Unless he enjoys not watching his favorite player / team play for the ultimate goal.

 

[UTGrad87]

Guys, can we stop it with the Jordan vs. James, who is the best player ever, arguments? Yeah, both were/are great players . . . definitely in the top 10 all time. But neither is number 1. That will always belong to a guy named Wilt Chamberlain.

If Wilt were to have played in today's, 'touch me it's a foul' NBA, he could easily duplicate his 50 points pg that he averaged in 1961. And he averaged 26 rebounds per game that year too. Over a span of 6 seasons, he averaged 42 points pg. and 25 rebounds pg! Who even comes close to those stats? No one! Quite simply, there has never been a player like him before or since. He could do things on the court that Jordan or James can only dream about.

Wilt was a 7"1' man that could run and jump like a shooting guard while possessing the strength of an Olympic weight lifter. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Wilt was the naturally strongest man he'd ever seen in his entire life. That's from a guy who could bench press 490 lbs.

Do you guys know why there is the 'Free Throw Rim Violation' rule on free throws? If your legs go beyond the free throw line before the ball hits the rim, it's a free throw violation. That's because Wilt could take 1 step back on his free throws, jump behind the free throw line and lay the ball in the basket, hand way above the rim, before his feet hit the ground. He did that in college so the NBA instituted that rule to stop it. So remember how Jordan and Dr. Jay would run the length of the court and jump at the free throw line and dunk it? Wilt could take 1 step and do that!!

My father told me a story about seeing Wilt play against another center who was 6"10' . . . and they both went up for a rebound and grabbed the ball at the same time and came down to the floor . . . . Then Wilt pushed the ball high into the air . . . physically picking the other guy up off the floor while he was still holding onto the ball, his legs dangling beneath him, and shook him off the ball like a rag doll . . . the other guy weighed north of 300 lbs!

Wilt gets neglected in these conversations because the teams he played on were never as good as the Celtic teams he played against and lost too. But the truth be told, he completely dominated every team and every player he ever played against, including Bill Russel. Just look it up.

Wilt is still and will probably always be the best player ever to play in the NBA. Everyone else is fighting for number 2. FWIW, Jordan gets my #2 vote and GS may be the best team ever assembled. My apologies to Jordan and the Bulls!

 

[bubba2023]

He also slept with 20,000 women.

 

[topdecktiger]

So the teams that don't make the finals are not losers?

If you want to frame it in those terms, both are "losers."

I'm not saying making and losing 7 championships is better than winning them, but if 2 teams/players won the same amount of rings and 1 of them also played for but lost several other championships they would have had a better career. You are completely ignoring the fact that the years that said team/player didn't make the finals are more of a failure than making the finals and losing.

They didn't win the same amount of championships. Jordan won 6. James won 3. This isn't like Brady/Montana. Jordan doubled James's total.

Aside from that, if you don't win a championship, then it doesn't really matter. If you lost in the finals or the semi finals, you didn't win a championship. Neither is "better" than the other. For example, San Antonio lost to Golden State in the semi finals. Cleveland is about to lose to Golden State in the finals. They both lost to the same team. Cleveland just happened not to run into Golden State until later in the bracket. That's not "better."

Is not even making it to a championship game better than making it and losing it?

Neither one is better. We are talking about "the greatest." You don't measure the "greatest" by failure. "My failure was better than your failure!!!!!!"

But with the exception of the loss to the Mavs Lebron has had a mediocre supporting class. In the ones he won he had it but in the ones he lost they were nowhere to be found.

Yeah, that's the point. He hasn't won anything without his rent-a-team. Look at it this way. Imagine if Jordan had been on a team of Michael Jordan, Isaiah Thomas, and Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Then imagine it was a team of Michael Jordan, Allen Iverson, and Hakeem Olajuwon. A) Imagine what Jordan could have done with that. B) Imagine what everyone would think of Jordan if he only won 3 of 7.

 

[bubba2023]

My argument isn't even about Jordan vs. James. I proposed the below hypothetical and you said going 3-0 in championships is better than 3-5.

"3-0 is better than 3-5. 1.000 is better than 0.375."

 

[topdecktiger]

My argument isn't even about Jordan vs. James. I proposed the below hypothetical and you said going 3-0 in championships is better than 3-5.

"3-0 is better than 3-5. 1.000 is better than 0.375."

And again, I'll refer you to my San Antonio/Cleveland analogy.

 

[bubba2023]

And again, I'll refer you to my San Antonio/Cleveland analogy.

My hypothetical doesn't qualify that you were always beaten by the eventual champion. Hell you could have not even made the playoffs in other years.

 

[topdecktiger]

My hypothetical doesn't qualify that you were always beaten by the eventual champion. Hell you could have not even made the playoffs in other years.

I'm not saying my analogy is dependent on beating the eventual champion. What I'm pointing out is, bragging that "I made it farther than you before I Iost!!!" is not relevant when you are making an argument about greatness. As another poster pointed out, the only reason Cleveland and Miami made it to so many finals is because they played in the East. If they played in the West, they would have gone out early several times.

 

[diadevic]

Guys, can we stop it with the Jordan vs. James, who is the best player ever, arguments? Yeah, both were/are great players . . . definitely in the top 10 all time. But neither is number 1. That will always belong to a guy named Wilt Chamberlain.

If Wilt were to have played in today's, 'touch me it's a foul' NBA, he could easily duplicate his 50 points pg that he averaged in 1961. And he averaged 26 rebounds per game that year too. Over a span of 6 seasons, he averaged 42 points pg. and 25 rebounds pg! Who even comes close to those stats? No one! Quite simply, there has never been a player like him before or since. He could do things on the court that Jordan or James can only dream about.

Wilt was a 7"1' man that could run and jump like a shooting guard while possessing the strength of an Olympic weight lifter. Arnold Schwarzenegger said Wilt was the naturally strongest man he'd ever seen in his entire life. That's from a guy who could bench press 490 lbs.

Do you guys know why there is the 'Free Throw Rim Violation' rule on free throws? If your legs go beyond the free throw line before the ball hits the rim, it's a free throw violation. That's because Wilt could take 1 step back on his free throws, jump behind the free throw line and lay the ball in the basket, hand way above the rim, before his feet hit the ground. He did that in college so the NBA instituted that rule to stop it. So remember how Jordan and Dr. Jay would run the length of the court and jump at the free throw line and dunk it? Wilt could take 1 step and do that!!

My father told me a story about seeing Wilt play against another center who was 6"10' . . . and they both went up for a rebound and grabbed the ball at the same time and came down to the floor . . . . Then Wilt pushed the ball high into the air . . . physically picking the other guy up off the floor while he was still holding onto the ball, his legs dangling beneath him, and shook him off the ball like a rag doll . . . the other guy weighed north of 300 lbs!

Wilt gets neglected in these conversations because the teams he played on were never as good as the Celtic teams he played against and lost too. But the truth be told, he completely dominated every team and every player he ever played against, including Bill Russel. Just look it up.

Wilt is still and will probably always be the best player ever to play in the NBA. Everyone else is fighting for number 2. FWIW, Jordan gets my #2 vote and GS may be the best team ever assembled. My apologies to Jordan and the Bulls!

Wilt had a career 51% Free Throw Percentage. He towered over inferior players. Great points all, including the fact that he never had the team around him that Russell had.

 

[DrinkToIt]

Um, LeBron didn't win anything until he got Wade and Bosh, and then Love and Irving.



3-0 is better than 3-5. 1.000 is better than 0.375.

From his rookie year LeBron was better than Kobe, and he didn't have a hall of fame center to carry him. He literally carried that no name Cavs team to multiple finals. Maybe Kobe after his 3rd or 4th year could have done the same, but Kobe can't legitimately say hes better than LeBron. One on one Id take LeBron easily.

 

[outhereincali]

Well 's not over yet the Cavs managed to avoid a sweep. Kevin Love and the Cavs bench stopped throwing up air balls and the Cavs rolled. Actually the beat the Warriors at their own game setting an NBA Finals record hitting on 24 three point shots. Also, they never trailed. They set an NBA Finals record scoring 86 points in the first half.

This one was for pride. In the history of playoff series sports, baseball, basketball, and hockey, only one team has been down 3 games to 0 and come from behind to win. That was when the Red Sox came from behind to beat the Yankees in 2004. However in NBA Finals history no team had ever been down 3 games to 1 to come back and win the title until the Cavs did it last year against the Warriors and the Warriors had the best w/l record in NBA history.

Lebron James and Kyrie Irving carried that team on their shoulders and the city of Cleveland finally had a championship team. Can they do it again? Well coming from behind down 3 games to 1 is one thing, but being down 3 games to 0 is a whole different animal. If you ask me point blank if the Cavs will do it I would have to say no. But the one man in the NBA who can do it is Lebron James. Kyrie Irving will do his part and if the rest of the Cav team will show up and stop throwing up air balls who knows?

 

[DrinkToIt]

The Cavs needed a record setting performance to win that game. They wont reproduce those results. I expect Golden State to take game 5.

 

[RoboCocks21]

For all the crow eaters

 

[DrinkToIt]

View embedded media

For all the crow eater

Ill never stop LOLing over the "he can't bench 180" criticism.

 

[bubba2023]

Or the fact that Greg Oden was taken ahead of him.

 

[topdecktiger]

From his rookie year LeBron was better than Kobe, and he didn't have a hall of fame center to carry him. He literally carried that no name Cavs team to multiple finals. Maybe Kobe after his 3rd or 4th year could have done the same, but Kobe can't legitimately say hes better than LeBron. One on one Id take LeBron easily.

I haven't been making argument regarding Kobe Bryant. It's irrelevant to the conversation.

James didn't carry Cleveland to multiple finals. He made it once, in 2007, where they were swept by San Antonio. All of James's other appearances were with his superstar teams, Miami with Wade and Bosh, and Cleveland with Irving and Love.

But the one man in the NBA who can do it is Lebron James. Kyrie Irving will do his part and if the rest of the Cav team will show up and stop throwing up air balls who knows?

Tristan Thompson and JR Smith had big games. Still didn't help.

 

[outhereincali]

There is no question that the Warriors were the better team. I can see why their chance of winning was like 92 on a scale of 100. In this case I was too much of a LeBron James fan. It was over when the Cavs lost game 3. LeBron is human and at the end of that game he and Kyrie Irving ran out of gas. The rest of the Cleveland starters played good enough but their bench was nonexistent. They scored like 7 points total. By comparison Andre Iguodala came off the bench and scored 20 points by himself. The player's they added at mid season did nothing. If the Cavs don't improve their bench Lebron and Kyrie will probably run out of gas in the Finals again.

I was disappointed in the way Kevin Durant handled his departure. He told the people in OKC how much he loved it there but we now know that he was tweeting about joining the Warriors halfway through his last season in OKC. But LeBron did the same thing when he left Cleveland a few years ago. Their built for the long haul most of their good players are in their twenties and Lebron will be 33 next season. Steve Kerr is an incredible coach. Takes over at 47 never coached a day in his life. Spent a couple of season as the Suns gm and that was it. Before he will probably joining Auerbach, Riley, Jackson, and Pop as the greatest coaches of all time. When KD signed with the Warriors they created of what I call a Dream Team. I like that term better than Super Team. DT reminds me of the Olympic team in 1992.

Kevin really had little pressure on him all season. He could concentrate on playing and not having the carry the team. And the results showed. Scoring at least 30 points in every Finals game was very Jordanesque. He deserved the Finals MVP.

And as Longhorn I was glad to see one of boys win an NBA title. That makes two in row in the NBA Finals.

Hookem

 

[topdecktiger]

The rest of the Cleveland starters played good enough but their bench was nonexistent.

That's always been the case. It was was true of Miami as well. That's because it takes so much money for the "Big 3" that there isn't much left over to round out the bench. The problem has reared its head in more than one finals.

 

[diadevic]

That's always been the case. It was was true of Miami as well. That's because it takes so much money for the "Big 3" that there isn't much left over to round out the bench. The problem has reared its head in more than one finals.

One radio show I listened to today said Cleveland is now in salary cap hell - overpaying for Tristan Thompson and Kevin Love among others. They will only be able to improve around the edges (a David West past his prime type). And with LeBron still great but turning 33, chances of catching Golden State are slim. So let the LeBron to LA rumors begin.

 

[outhereincali]

That's always been the case. It was was true of Miami as well. That's because it takes so much money for the "Big 3" that there isn't much left over to round out the bench. The problem has reared its head in more than one finals.

True that. But you know who has been able to build a team of outstanding supporting players with low paying contracts? The Spurs. But can the Cavs find players like that? Doubtful. They're going to be $28 million over the salary cap. They're going to have to find a way to dump players outside of the starting lineup.

 

[topdecktiger]

True that. But you know who has been able to build a team of outstanding supporting players with low paying contracts? The Spurs. But can the Cavs find players like that? Doubtful. They're going to be $28 million over the salary cap. They're going to have to find a way to dump players outside of the starting lineup.

Which is one of the inherent flaws in the concept. The Warriors were able to avoid the problem because they acquired many of their core players via draft or trade, before they hit the free agent market at superstar status.

 

[bubba2023]

Yeah you can't sustain via free agency. You can make a short run but eventually the bill is going to come due. The Warriors already had an all natural home grown championship caliber team last season and were champions the year before that.

 

[bubba2023]

That's always been the case. It was was true of Miami as well. That's because it takes so much money for the "Big 3" that there isn't much left over to round out the bench. The problem has reared its head in more than one finals.

They may have been the first to do what they did, but looking back at those Miami teams and it seems silly to think of them as some kind of force. They were incredibly flawed teams.

 

[outhereincali]

That's always been the case. It was was true of Miami as well. That's because it takes so much money for the "Big 3" that there isn't much left over to round out the bench. The problem has reared its head in more than one finals.

Well the Heat won 2 titles with some good role players. Guys like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and especially Ray Allen. And do you remember that weird looking center with all the tats on him? I can't remember his name but that man was inked from his neck to his toes. Really But he was a defensive force around the basket. The Cavs don't have anyone remotely resembling those guys.

You have to find some guys who will take a pay cut for the chance to play for the title.

 

[bubba2023]

Well the Heat won 2 titles with some good role players. Guys like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and especially Ray Allen. And do you remember that weird looking center with all the tats on him? I can't remember his name but that man was inked from his neck to his toes. Really But he was a defensive force around the basket. The Cavs don't have anyone remotely resembling those guys.

You have to find some guys who will take a pay cut for the chance to play for the title.

I think you are misremembering those heat squads because they produced two titles. The Cavs are also battling a much better team in the Warriors than the Heat championship teams beat. Those Heat teams wouldn't stand any more of a chance against this Warriors team than the Cavs did

 

[topdecktiger]

Well the Heat won 2 titles with some good role players. Guys like Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem, and especially Ray Allen. And do you remember that weird looking center with all the tats on him? I can't remember his name but that man was inked from his neck to his toes. Really But he was a defensive force around the basket. The Cavs don't have anyone remotely resembling those guys.

You have to find some guys who will take a pay cut for the chance to play for the title.

Ray Allen is a future Hall of Fame player, not a "role player." Mike Miller is a roll player. He's a 3 point specialist, kind of like Kyle Corver. You also have Tristan Thompson, much like Udonis Haslem.

Miami won two titles.......and also got dismantled in two other finals. To be honest, they were fortunate to win two titles. That bench was simply not good. Neither is Cleveland's bench.

Here's the bottom line. The real reason James has made it to 7 straight finals is that the East is so bad. There is a reason James has specifically avoided playing in the West. He wants a easier path to the finals every year. If he built his super teams in the West, he still would have made some finals, but not 7 straight.

 

[outhereincali]

Ray Allen is a future Hall of Fame player, not a "role player." Mike Miller is a roll player. He's a 3 point specialist, kind of like Kyle Corver. You also have Tristan Thompson, much like Udonis Haslem.

Miami won two titles.......and also got dismantled in two other finals. To be honest, they were fortunate to win two titles. That bench was simply not good. Neither is Cleveland's bench.

Here's the bottom line. The real reason James has made it to 7 straight finals is that the East is so bad. There is a reason James has specifically avoided playing in the West. He wants a easier path to the finals every year. If he built his super teams in the West, he still would have made some finals, but not 7 straight.

Correct Ray Allen is a futer HOF players. But when he signed with Miami he was at the end of his career. He came off the bench and was signed at a bargain basement salary. There is no question that the Miami bench was much better than the one he has in Cleveland.

As for 7 straight Finals appearances and weak competition. Maybe but 7 straight years in the Finals is a hard thing to do. Very few have done it. But lets be honest. There were only three teams in the NBA who had a chance to win the title. The Cavs, the Warriors, and the Spurs and when Kawhi Leonard went down the Spurs, and lest be honest, fell apart. I don't see that changing next year. It is what it is.