Waco the American Apocalypse 30 years later

[outhereincali]

It's the name of a Netflix documentary they talk to the people involved. Among the survivors my heart hurts for Heather Jones. I feel bad for FBI negotiator Gary Noesnar who was making progress some people were released on March 21st.

But the next day the ATF destroyed all chances of it ending peacefully taking a big tank running over David Koresh car and then playing loud music non-stop.

The ATF bears a lot of responsibility for this and to this day they refuse to acknowledge responsibility. Big surprise. Their manhood was hurt on February 28. That's when it started they made a raid when they learned the Branch Davidians had stockpiled a lot of weapons. That's putting it mildly. But although 6 Branch Davidians died the ATF lost 4 men and had to retreat. And then started the standoff started.

But David Koresh has equal responsibility maybe more in this tragedy. He proclaimed himself the Messiah. But his message resonated with some people. He traveled as far as Australia to bring converts to Waco. Yes he fathered children with underage girls. Yes he was a conman. He was not well educated and not very good looking he was dyslexic.

But it's hard for people to understand that these people were in another world, another dimension that only they could understand. DK said they were God's avenging army. He told them the federal government was going to kill them and this was long before 1993. So they stockpiled all those weapons. He said they would die in a fire and would come back to kill the federal government. So on 4/19/93 they told themselves it's true.

I mean they were true believers. One of the snipers said he saw a Davidian in the midst of fire tried to shoot him and he barely missed. That's true commitment.

I mean there so much blame on both sides. Among the survivors I have contempt for Kathy Schroeder. But I also have contempt for the ATF. Waco started a hatred for the federal government from right wing extremists groups that exists to this day. For the other survivors like Heather Jones who lost her father that day I pray for their peace of mind.

Lastly I hope you are burning in hell David Koresh

 

[WRLHookem]

The whole thing was a mass of over escalated ego on both sides. End of day Karesh was screwed up in the head. It wasn’t going to end well no matter what steps were taken. He was determined long before this event that this would end up being his fate. Unfortunately he convinced a whole bunch of “innocent” people and families to follow. And most of the “families” were from his own loins. Good thing is he’s still burning today just like he did then.

 

[Hoookem722]

The way I look at is if those people were stupid enough to be brainwashed and be there then just let them be. The real tragedy in it all is all the innocent children that were killed.

 

[clob94]

The ATF was jealous that other Fed LEOs were making headlines, having their budgets fattened- getting their d!cks sucked by the DC Beltway crowd- think about it-
2 days prior to the Davidian initial raid-on Feb 28, 1993-- what happened?

Feb 26, 1993 -- anybody? Ramzi Yousef coordinates the bombing of the WTC parking garage. In 1990, the FBI had been tasked with street gangs like MS13, Bloods, Crips etc- and their budget was meh. But by 1993- they'd managed to get it ballooned. In 1993 there were 21 FBI offices in the US and abroad. 8 years later, that number had doubled. Big $$$$$$$$$$$$.

The DEA had been given sh!t-piles of money to hunt down Columbian drug kings like Pablo Escobar (with the help of JSOC or ISA or "The Army of Norther Virginia-- whatever you want to call them) alongside the CIAs Special Activities Group-- and that sh!t is expensive.

So here's the ATF, wanting to make a splash to get some of those dollar bills falling from the sky. So what do they do?
Do they arrest David when he's out jogging in the morning? Alone. On a country road. With no back-up.
Nope. They have to make a spectacle of it. Why? Headlines.
How do you know they wanted a spectacle?
Easy.
They tasked a local Waco TV reporter and his crew with coming out to the compound to RECORD THE FVCKING RAID!!
Ya. They did that. That very reporter found himself lost on a road whilst searching for the compound and was happened upon by a local rural mailman. He's lost, asks for directions to the compound from the mailman-- who lives on the compound-- and then tells him the ATF asked him to come film the raid.
This was a publicity stunt from jump street.

Best part- the camera man, who barely escapes with his life-- is walking his dog tired ass up the same road as the ATF to leave- after they were on the receiving end of a 2 and a half hour asswhipping-- and the fvcking ATF, the same people that ASKED HIM TO COME FILM-- see him filming their march of defeat and shame, and then physically attack the guy, taking his camera from him.

Now if that don't beat all.....

Koresh was a piece of sh!t con man. I don't think anyone doubts that. But what were those people doing to hurt anyone?
Answer- nothing.
My better half grew up and went to school with the daughter of the Federal Prosecutor for the Western district. He was set to try the case until Clinton had him replaced. Probably the only favor a Democrat ever did him. Trust me when I tell you, the ATF wanted their splash headlines and their juicy budget infusion. That's how this whole thing got started.

 

[Hookedonit]

The ATF was jealous that other Fed LEOs were making headlines, having their budgets fattened- getting their d!cks sucked by the DC Beltway crowd- think about it-
2 days prior to the Davidian initial raid-on Feb 28, 1993-- what happened?

Feb 26, 1993 -- anybody? Ramzi Yousef coordinates the bombing of the WTC parking garage. In 1990, the FBI had been tasked with street gangs like MS13, Bloods, Crips etc- and their budget was meh. But by 1993- they'd managed to get it ballooned. In 1993 there were 21 FBI offices in the US and abroad. 8 years later, that number had doubled. Big $$$$$$$$$$$$.

The DEA had been given sh!t-piles of money to hunt down Columbian drug kings like Pablo Escobar (with the help of JSOC or ISA or "The Army of Norther Virginia-- whatever you want to call them) alongside the CIAs Special Activities Group-- and that sh!t is expensive.

So here's the ATF, wanting to make a splash to get some of those dollar bills falling from the sky. So what do they do?
Do they arrest David when he's out jogging in the morning? Alone. On a country road. With no back-up.
Nope. They have to make a spectacle of it. Why? Headlines.
How do you know they wanted a spectacle?
Easy.
They tasked a local Waco TV reporter and his crew with coming out to the compound to RECORD THE FVCKING RAID!!
Ya. They did that. That very reporter found himself lost on a road whilst searching for the compound and was happened upon by a local rural mailman. He's lost, asks for directions to the compound from the mailman-- who lives on the compound-- and then tells him the ATF asked him to come film the raid.
This was a publicity stunt from jump street.

Best part- the camera man, who barely escapes with his life-- is walking his dog tired ass up the same road as the ATF to leave- after they were on the receiving end of a 2 and a half hour asswhipping-- and the fvcking ATF, the same people that ASKED HIM TO COME FILM-- see him filming their march of defeat and shame, and then physically attack the guy, taking his camera from him.

Now if that don't beat all.....

Koresh was a piece of sh!t con man. I don't think anyone doubts that. But what were those people doing to hurt anyone?
Answer- nothing.
My better half grew up and went to school with the daughter of the Federal Prosecutor for the Western district. He was set to try the case until Clinton had him replaced. Probably the only favor a Democrat ever did him. Trust me when I tell you, the ATF wanted their splash headlines and their juicy budget infusion. That's how this whole thing got started.

Absolutely spot on pure dog and pony show that went horribly wrong . The local Sherriff the late Jack Harwell knew DK very well and could have asked DK to come in any time . The ATF declined obviously. I still reside in Waco and knew several people connected to the BD. Absolutely hurting no one in their own little world.

 

[outhereincali]

And when they negotiated the release of a lot of hostages on 3/21 the next day the ATF arrested them and hauled them off to jail. On tv. You think they didn't see that?

 

[clob94]

And in this week's episode of "Super Fvcking Shady Sh!t our Government Does"---

Anybody know why the FBI isn't going to release the manifesto of the Nashville Trans shooter?

Because they are calling it a........ wait for it...... "a blueprint on total destruction".

This mastermind- this tactical planning guru- this Al Queda level tactician- has created a blueprint so incredibly insightful, that it can't be released to the public. I mean, this must just BLOW AWAY the Chechen plans laid out for the attack on Beslan School number 7.
I mean this 28 year old tier 1 operator had to have her training from somewhere--- right?
In fact, her blueprint was SO tactically sound that she managed to get off how many rounds against the police?

None?

Wait-- not 1 round? You sure? (checks notes)

Ya. Not one round.

@outhereincali ---- Now are you starting to see a pattern here yet?

 

[TX1972]

Then the ATF turned to Randy Weaver. Power corrupts.

 

[clob94]

Then the ATF turned to Randy Weaver. Power corrupts.

That was before Waco.

 

[Etlonghorn]

That was before Waco.

Yep. Almost a solid year from Ruby Ridge to D Day in Waco.
The ATF has been a rolling shit show since its inception. It’s literally screw up, lay low, screw up, lay low, repeat.
Ruby Ridge
Waco
Milwaukee gun shop sting fiasco
Fast and Furious
Just to name a few highlights.

 

[clob94]

Yep. Almost a solid year from Ruby Ridge to D Day in Waco.
The ATF has been a rolling shit show since its inception. It’s literally screw up, lay low, screw up, lay low, repeat.
Ruby Ridge
Waco
Milwaukee gun shop sting fiasco
Fast and Furious
Just to name a few highlights.

2001 Stevenson Ranch shootout.

Poor fvcking neighbors had a couple hundred rounds pumped into their houses. ATF damn near killed one couples newborn baby.

 

[Hoookem722]

Yep. Almost a solid year from Ruby Ridge to D Day in Waco.
The ATF has been a rolling shit show since its inception. It’s literally screw up, lay low, screw up, lay low, repeat.
Ruby Ridge
Waco
Milwaukee gun shop sting fiasco
Fast and Furious
Just to name a few highlights.

Weren’t they involved in that Waco biker shootout? I’ve heard some crazy stories that I actually kind of believe.

 

[outhereincali]

And in this week's episode of "Super Fvcking Shady Sh!t our Government Does"---

Anybody know why the FBI isn't going to release the manifesto of the Nashville Trans shooter?

Because they are calling it a........ wait for it...... "a blueprint on total destruction".

This mastermind- this tactical planning guru- this Al Queda level tactician- has created a blueprint so incredibly insightful, that it can't be released to the public. I mean, this must just BLOW AWAY the Chechen plans laid out for the attack on Beslan School number 7.
I mean this 28 year old tier 1 operator had to have her training from somewhere--- right?
In fact, her blueprint was SO tactically sound that she managed to get off how many rounds against the police?

None?

Wait-- not 1 round? You sure? (checks notes)

Ya. Not one round.

@outhereincali ---- Now are you starting to see a pattern here yet?

Well why did the BD have enough weapons to our outfit a small army?

 

[clob94]

Because owning guns in America, is completely legal.

Little known fact- the BDs would sometimes buy and sell guns to make profits. Totally legal.
It was only when the ATF received an "anonymous tip" that the BDs were "converting SOME of the weapons from semi-auto to full auto" that they decided to pay more attention to them.
Then they get told by a FedEx guy (or package delivery person) that one of the packages he delivered them had a grenade roll out of it. It was later discovered that the BDs did have a grenade, but it was found unexploded, under a dead body. Also, the grenade seen by the parcel delivery man was a paper weight.
Converting a semi-auto AR15 to auto isn't rocket science. Back then there were 3 or 4 ways to do it- including drilling a tiny hole through the sides of the receiver. There's easier ways to do it- but drilling usually works best.
Was that against the law? If an FFL guy didn't live on premise, then yes- it was.
But you're missing the point.


If this guy was such a dangerous threat- then arrest him while he's out on his morning jog. Or when he comes to town to buy groceries.

Who at the fvcking ATF went--
"You know what George, it'd be a GREAT idea to raid a 77 acre compound with 120 people who are all armed with machine guns-- and oh, btw, there's 50 little kids in there too!"

"Ya Bob-- that IS a fvcking great idea. Let's roll up on them fast so they don't see us coming- in broad daylight- and yell, 'Come on out with yer hands up, scallywags!'. That'll work. Nothing could go wrong there!"

"And you know what else George-- we can get the LOCAL NEWS ANCHOR out there with his camera to film these hapless bastards as they trip over themselves trying to surrender to us. We are ALL gonna get promoted after this!"

You see where I'm going with this?

 

[outhereincali]

This case it had nothing to do with that. This man had a frightening vision of the world according to me. Not a righteous man at all.

 

[clob94]

This case it had nothing to do with that. This man had a frightening vision of the world according to me. Not a righteous man at all.

This case had nothing to do with.......... what?

Please explain.

 

[outhereincali]

This case had nothing to do with.......... what?

Please explain.

Look I'm furious, angry, disgusted, and contemptuous, with the ATF and their involvement with all this. 30 years later I'm still disgusted with them they're a disaster waiting to happen.

But some people are focused on their hatred of the federal government without seeing all sides in this tragedy.

Vernon Howell was truly evil. Taught his followers that one day the federal government was going to attack them and they would die a fiery death then come back in vengeance to those who hated them And these people totally believed him. So they buy countless weapons in preparation who does that?

Well never know who started the fire. But the Davidians were ready to die with no second thoughts.

I just equate Vernon Howell with ATF he was that evil.

 

[clob94]

Look I'm furious, angry, disgusted, and contemptuous, with the ATF and their involvement with all this. 30 years later I'm still disgusted with them they're a disaster waiting to happen.

But some people are focused on their hatred of the federal government without seeing all sides in this tragedy.

Vernon Howell was truly evil. Taught his followers that one day the federal government was going to attack them and they would die a fiery death then come back in vengeance to those who hated them And these people totally believed him. So they buy countless weapons in preparation who does that?

Well never know who started the fire. But the Davidians were ready to die with no second thoughts.

I just equate Vernon Howell with ATF he was that evil.

I have a question.

If the ATF never raided that compound, would those children have likely grown into adults?

This isn't a trick question Cali. I'm not fvcking with you. I'm asking a sincere question. I'll ask it again, just so you're clear.

If the ATF handles this differently, If they don't raid the compund- do you think those children don't end up burned alive?

 

[outhereincali]

I have a question.

If the ATF never raided that compound, would those children have likely grown into adults?

This isn't a trick question Cali. I'm not fvcking with you. I'm asking a sincere question. I'll ask it again, just so you're clear.

If the ATF handles this differently, If they don't raid the compund- do you think those children don't end up burned alive?

That's a hell of a question. Why would someone who claimed he was a Messiah talk about how the federal government would come after them.

I disagree that they were minding their own business. No if they were my neighbors I'll just move I don't want people like that living in my neighborhood.

So why is he stockpiling all those weapons? Because he told them they were God's avenging army. One more time. And it's not just the young girls. His followers believed him when he said he was a disciple of King David.

The Davidians were a disciple of the 7th Day Adventists don't even to talk those people about religion or history. His vision is to hard to for me to explain or understand and I read the Bible but from what little I was able to understand was truly frightening. Did you know he attracted followers from all over the world including Israel?

 

[oldhorn2]

The most overlooked point in the whole fiasco...when the ATF first surrounded the compound, the McClendon county sheriff shows up and was furious....He asked why he was not informed of the raid??? He said if you wanted Koresh why didn't you tell me? I could have picked the guy up any time.... He said Koresh walked the streets of Waco everyday!!!

Yet another example of the worthlessness of the Feds

 

[oldhorn2]

The Feds caused the standoff by not informing the sheriff of their intent to arrest Koresh. They said they could not afford a leak alerting Koresh and causing him to...uh...board up the place and cause a standoff. What arrogance....what buffoonery...

 

[clob94]

That's a hell of a question. Why would someone who claimed he was a Messiah talk about how the federal government would come after them.

I disagree that they were minding their own business. No if they were my neighbors I'll just move I don't want people like that living in my neighborhood.

So why is he stockpiling all those weapons? Because he told them they were God's avenging army. One more time. And it's not just the young girls. His followers believed him when he said he was a disciple of King David.

The Davidians were a disciple of the 7th Day Adventists don't even to talk those people about religion or history. His vision is to hard to for me to explain or understand and I read the Bible but from what little I was able to understand was truly frightening. Did you know he attracted followers from all over the world including Israel?

You still didn't answer my question.


I'm trying to create dialog with you but in order to do that- you have to answer my question.

Now-- let's try this again:

If the ATF had chosen to NOT conduct that raid and instead arrest Koresh on the streets of Waco, would those children have been burned alive in that fire?

 

[Drtxhorn]

You still didn't answer my question.


I'm trying to create dialog with you but in order to do that- you have to answer my question.

Now-- let's try this again:

If the ATF had chosen to NOT conduct that raid and instead arrest Koresh on the streets of Waco, would those children have been burned alive in that fire?

No

 

[outhereincali]

You still didn't answer my question.


I'm trying to create dialog with you but in order to do that- you have to answer my question.

Now-- let's try this again:

If the ATF had chosen to NOT conduct that raid and instead arrest Koresh on the streets of Waco, would those children have been burned alive in that fire?

No they wouldn't have died. As I said at the top the ATF got their manhood crushed and they were going to do whatever it took

 

[clob94]

No they wouldn't have died. As I said at the top the ATF got their manhood crushed and they were going to do whatever it took

Ok.

Now that we've established that-
As a teenager, I watched this play out daily. I had 2 cousins, both State Troopers, who were there from (almost) start to finish.
This event was the day that my trust in our institutions took a nose dive. We were lied to in real time, with the cameras rolling-- we could ALL see what was happening, but WE as a collective just sorta swept it under the rug because David Koresh wasn't the nicest guy.....

But he was still a US citizen. He was still protected by the same laws as anyone else. And those rights were violated. Not only his rights, but the rights of every single person in that compound.

Their freedom of religion was taken away. Their freedom of speech was denied them for weeks. Their right to an attorney-- they had to write on a BED SHEET and hang from a window that they wanted to talk to lawyers. Their right to privacy was violated. They were held hostage by the government. Their property rights were violated.


Then, they were attacked and murdered. And just so you know- there WERE Other Government Agencies there that had no charter to operate on United States soil. But the government doesn't care about that-- just like they didn't care about those people.

Even as a teenager I thought "Ya..... ok..... fvck them weirdos..... but...... they're American citizens too..... So all the government has to do to fvck me over is make people think I'm some kind of criminal and then I'm screwed."

And because of this, I have a healthy distrust of the "establishment".

 

[outhereincali]

Ok.

Now that we've established that-
As a teenager, I watched this play out daily. I had 2 cousins, both State Troopers, who were there from (almost) start to finish.
This event was the day that my trust in our institutions took a nose dive. We were lied to in real time, with the cameras rolling-- we could ALL see what was happening, but WE as a collective just sorta swept it under the rug because David Koresh wasn't the nicest guy.....

But he was still a US citizen. He was still protected by the same laws as anyone else. And those rights were violated. Not only his rights, but the rights of every single person in that compound.

Their freedom of religion was taken away. Their freedom of speech was denied them for weeks. Their right to an attorney-- they had to write on a BED SHEET and hang from a window that they wanted to talk to lawyers. Their right to privacy was violated. They were held hostage by the government. Their property rights were violated.


Then, they were attacked and murdered. And just so you know- there WERE Other Government Agencies there that had no charter to operate on United States soil. But the government doesn't care about that-- just like they didn't care about those people.

Even as a teenager I thought "Ya..... ok..... fvck them weirdos..... but...... they're American citizens too..... So all the government has to do to fvck me over is make people think I'm some kind of criminal and then I'm screwed."

And because of this, I have a healthy distrust of the "establishment".

But these people considered it their destiny that they were going to die in an all out war. I guess I should say here I'm not a second amendment absolutist. And I'll say this again they had enough hardware to support a small country. For a group that was only 100 people at most. Oldhorn said it best. They should have let the Waco sheriff do this. These were dangerous people let the sheriff do his job and none of this would have happened.

 

[oldhorn2]

Another point not mentioned....even after the fact....after everything went sideways...the compound was surrounded...now what? I worked closely with the DPS and I know they were questioning why the Feds felt they absolutely had to go in??? One DPS sergeant even asked ...why not just leave them there? It was like they were already imprisoned....

 

[DHHorn]

Another point not mentioned....even after the fact....after everything went sideways...the compound was surrounded...now what? I worked closely with the DPS and I know they were questioning why the Feds felt they absolutely had to go in??? One DPS sergeant even asked ...why not just leave them there? It was like they were already imprisoned....

Had to save face no matter the cost.

 

[DHHorn]

The most overlooked point in the whole fiasco...when the ATF first surrounded the compound, the McClendon county sheriff shows up and was furious....He asked why he was not informed of the raid??? He said if you wanted Koresh why didn't you tell me? I could have picked the guy up any time.... He said Koresh walked the streets of Waco everyday!!!

Yet another example of the worthlessness of the Feds

The ATF was not after Koresh, they were after the glory.

 

[DHHorn]

Ok.

Now that we've established that-
As a teenager, I watched this play out daily. I had 2 cousins, both State Troopers, who were there from (almost) start to finish.
This event was the day that my trust in our institutions took a nose dive. We were lied to in real time, with the cameras rolling-- we could ALL see what was happening, but WE as a collective just sorta swept it under the rug because David Koresh wasn't the nicest guy.....

But he was still a US citizen. He was still protected by the same laws as anyone else. And those rights were violated. Not only his rights, but the rights of every single person in that compound.

Their freedom of religion was taken away. Their freedom of speech was denied them for weeks. Their right to an attorney-- they had to write on a BED SHEET and hang from a window that they wanted to talk to lawyers. Their right to privacy was violated. They were held hostage by the government. Their property rights were violated.


Then, they were attacked and murdered. And just so you know- there WERE Other Government Agencies there that had no charter to operate on United States soil. But the government doesn't care about that-- just like they didn't care about those people.

Even as a teenager I thought "Ya..... ok..... fvck them weirdos..... but...... they're American citizens too..... So all the government has to do to fvck me over is make people think I'm some kind of criminal and then I'm screwed."

And because of this, I have a healthy distrust of the "establishment".

The ATF shouldn't have done the raid the way they did but once Koresh didn't let them execute their search warrant and started firing he was basically resisting arrest at that point. I'm not a legal expert but I don't think your rights to an attorney and freedom of speech apply when you are actively resisting arrest, also they had a search warrant so property rights did not matter either. I know you know this but the laws were made intentionally to be in the Governments favor and if they are not they will change them to be in their favor. How they got their search warrant was shady but that's another topic.