Waco the American Apocalypse 30 years later

[clob94]

Then the question is what made the ATF fire first? Did they see someone point a gun at them through a window or something? I know it's much more complicated than this but when an officer makes a traffic stop and the driver pulls a gun and points it at the officer the officer is justified in shooting first. The agents were clearly identified so there was no mistaken identity or anything.

Dogs.

An agent testified that when the BDs started firing, he bailed over the fence for cover, into the dog pen-- the pen that housed the BDs guard dogs. Mind you, the ATF were worried about being attacked by those dogs--- several of them testified to this fear.
So this agent jumps OVER a fence and INTO a pen full of terrifyingly savage guard dogs-------- for safety?
No. Most likely, the ATF fired at the dogs and the BDs thought the HOUSE was being fired on-- so the BDs returned fire.

 

[oldhorn2]

The ATF guys got up on the roof to try and gain entry...the BD,'s started firing through the roof and walls at them...
It went downhill.frpm there.....

 

[clob94]

The ATF guys got up on the roof to try and gain entry...the BD,'s started firing through the roof and walls at them...
It went downhill.frpm there.....

Oh and here's how you know the ATF shot the dogs first.
Somebody do the @GuaranteedFresh! bat signal to get him in here.

Fresh, when out at night on an op in an unfriendly neughborhood- the kind of hood where you don't want to wake up the neighbors, you've obviously been given a pretty thorough briefing of said house you're about to breach-- if there's a guard dog outside-- what's first on the list of things to do?

I'm guessing it's "shoot the dog so it doesn't wake up everyone in the area" and also so it doesn't bite you and give you rabies or some other disease.
Ya? No? Maybe so?

The ATF shot the fvcking dogs and all hell broke loose.

 

[Etlonghorn]

Same thing set off the shit show at Ruby Ridge. Feds shoot the dog. Guy in the house thinks they’re shooting at the house and returns fire. Everything went south from there.

 

[GuaranteedFresh!]

Oh and here's how you know the ATF shot the dogs first.
Somebody do the @GuaranteedFresh! bat signal to get him in here.

Fresh, when out at night on an op in an unfriendly neughborhood- the kind of hood where you don't want to wake up the neighbors, you've obviously been given a pretty thorough briefing of said house you're about to breach-- if there's a guard dog outside-- what's first on the list of things to do?

I'm guessing it's "shoot the dog so it doesn't wake up everyone in the area" and also so it doesn't bite you and give you rabies or some other disease.
Ya? No? Maybe so?

The ATF shot the fvcking dogs and all hell broke loose.

Pretty situational really. Most sh!tholes are littered with strays but if guard dogs are known, they are accounted for and dispatched. Well trained or abused dogs are an immense force multiplier and very unpredictable. There's only 1 way to assure early warning barks never happen and tranq darts aren't it. The suck ain't pretty.

As for the Waco cluster fk, they never had the element of surprise so it had to be for safety. If the po-po is raiding a residence, you best believe fido is going to be deleted first.

 

[hookem777]

You still didn't answer my question.


I'm trying to create dialog with you but in order to do that- you have to answer my question.

Now-- let's try this again:

If the ATF had chosen to NOT conduct that raid and instead arrest Koresh on the streets of Waco, would those children have been burned alive in that fire?

no

 

[oldhorn2]

I never heard of dogs at the compound, but silence or surprise was not on the table. The feds were blasting LOUD music at the compound 24/7 to try and drive them out. They couldn't have heard a dog bark at all.

For some reason the Feds were in a rush to end the stand off. The excuse was to save the kids, but that idea was shown to be just a lie.

After the roof fiasco, they sent in a sort of tank. The original photos showed what looked for all the world like a flame thrower firing up. Those photos disappeared from public view after the whole place burned down and the lying feds said the BD's started the fire themselves.

It is a dark stain on the FBI and ATF....

 

[clob94]

I never heard of dogs at the compound, but silence or surprise was not on the table. The feds were blasting LOUD music at the compound 24/7 to try and drive them out. They couldn't have heard a dog bark at all.

For some reason the Feds were in a rush to end the stand off. The excuse was to save the kids, but that idea was shown to be just a lie.

After the roof fiasco, they sent in a sort of tank. The original photos showed what looked for all the world like a flame thrower firing up. Those photos disappeared from public view after the whole place burned down and the lying feds said the BD's started the fire themselves.

It is a dark stain on the FBI and ATF....

No, no..... hang on- Oldhorn I think there's a little confusion or conflating going on.

Let's back up so I don't confuse you further-

The very first day- the day the ATF arrived- they were driven up disguised as "pick up trucks with cattle trailers in tow". So here's these Ford trucks with long cattle trailers being towed behind them- and inside the trucks and trailers were, instead of cows, ATF agents.
The trucks hauling trailers full of ATF agents roll right up to the front door of the BD compound and they all come piling out. There were no flashing blue and red lights to warn the BDs that law enforcement was coming.
Koresh, who'd been tipped off by the big mouth news reporter who was hired BY the ATF to film the initial raid, knew it had to be the ATF in those trailers.

Now, right next to the front of the house, there were some dog pens with German Shepards in them. These pens were literally 30 steps to the left of the front door (if you were viewing the compound from the OUTSIDE.)

So the ATF comes piling out of their trucks and trailers. Koresh opens the metal front doors of the compound and steps out to verbally confront the ATF on the front steps. The dog pen would have been on the RIGHT of Koresh- since he came OUT the front door- and they would have been full of their dogs at this moment.

Words are exchanged between ATF and Koresh, and then SOMEBODY shoots. Then all hell breaks loose.

It's theorized that the ATF shot one of the dogs that was coming OUT of the pen enclosure. Of course the BDs don't know who or what is being shot at, so they return fire.

Now, 51 days later, the dogs are all long dead and the music was being blasted and the tanks arrived etc etc, as you stated.

But the dig incident allegedly happened on day 1.

Sorry if we confused you my man.

 

[DHHorn]

Seems like both sides got what they wanted. The feds got their name in the paper and Koresh got to follow through with his prophecy. Poor kids.

 

[oldhorn2]

I didn't remember any shots fired before the last day.

 

[outhereincali]

The arrogance of the feds in this documentary was infuriating. A skilled hostage negotiator was shoved aside the day after he negotiated the release of 21 members many of them children.

No one will ever know who started the fire. Koresh always spoke of dying in a fiery blaze. I don't know why so many people on here have sympathy for David Koresh.

 

[clob94]

The arrogance of the feds in this documentary was infuriating. A skilled hostage negotiator was shoved aside the day after he negotiated the release of 21 members many of them children.

No one will ever know who started the fire. Koresh always spoke of dying in a fiery blaze. I don't know why so many people on here have sympathy for David Koresh.

Ehhhhhh.... back up and look at what you just said.

This is the kind of stuff that can be misunderstood by people.

Nobody, not one person here, has defended David Koresh "the person".
He was NOT a good person.

BUT, in the eyes of the LAW, David Koresh is entitled to the same rights as you.

 

[Hoookem722]

The arrogance of the feds in this documentary was infuriating. A skilled hostage negotiator was shoved aside the day after he negotiated the release of 21 members many of them children.

No one will ever know who started the fire. Koresh always spoke of dying in a fiery blaze. I don't know why so many people on here have sympathy for David Koresh.

I think you're mistaking the sympathy people have for all the BV's. None of that is directed towards Koresh though.

 

[clob94]

If anyone is watching "Waco: The Aftermath" on Showtime-

Holy sh!t balls.

 

[outhereincali]

If anyone is watching "Waco: The Aftermath" on Showtime-

Holy sh!t balls.

I watched that. Gary Noesnar was a good man who was making progress and then the ATF ditched him.

Dick DeGuerrin spoke to Koresh and he could have helped resolve this as well.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

 

[clob94]

I watched that. Gary Noesnar was a good man who was making progress and then the ATF ditched him.

Dick DeGuerrin spoke to Koresh and he could have helped resolve this as well.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

No--- this is part 2.

Just came out.

 

[oldhorn2]

All during the standoff the only word coming out of the compound was that Koresh was working his way through decoding the 7Seals and was very near completion. They said they would not come out until this was complete.

I swear it seemed like the Feds believed it and were in a hurry to not let that happen.

 

[outhereincali]

All during the standoff the only word coming out of the compound was that Koresh was working his way through decoding the 7Seals and was very near completion. They said they would not come out until this was complete.

I swear it seemed like the Feds believed it and were in a hurry to not let that happen.

Don't forget that David Koresh played the Fed's.

 

[clob94]

Don't forget that David Koresh played the Fed's.

You need to watch the new showtime series- Waco: The Aftermath. It covers the trial of the BDs and the OKC terror attack.

If you trust the federal gov one iota after watching this- you're forever wilfully ignorant.

 

[outhereincali]

You need to watch the new showtime series- Waco: The Aftermath. It covers the trial of the BDs and the OKC terror attack.

If you trust the federal gov one iota after watching this- you're forever wilfully ignorant.

My reply was in regards to David Koresh. I've completely agreed with most people's opinions about the FG in regards to Waco.

But it seems to me that most people on here are giving David Koresh a free pass and it's about time people somebody else besides me talk about his role in all this.

Did you watch/read interviews with the children who got out before everyone died? Pretty chilling. Oh and about the trial and the documentary Kathy Schroeder was and still is a punk. The interview with survivor Heather Jones was chilling.

And David Koresh never had any intention of finishing the 7seals. It was more about the world is going to pay attention to me now which is what he desperately wanted.

Rot in eternal hell Vernon Howell.

 

[clob94]

My reply was in regards to David Koresh. I've completely agreed with most people's opinions about the FG in regards to Waco.

But it seems to me that most people on here are giving David Koresh a free pass and it's about time people somebody else besides me talk about his role in all this.

Did you watch/read interviews with the children who got out before everyone died? Pretty chilling. Oh and about the trial and the documentary Kathy Schroeder was and still is a punk. The interview with survivor Heather Jones was chilling.

And David Koresh never had any intention of finishing the 7seals. It was more about the world is going to pay attention to me now which is what he desperately wanted.

Rot in eternal hell Vernon Howell.

SMH--


Cali-- I'm not talking about Koresh- we ALL have agreed the dude was a POS.

This isn't ABOUT that.

This is about the survivors of the raid- and how a jury found them "not guilty" at a trial, and the presiding judge AGREED to the verdect--- only to be leaned on BY the Federal government until he REVERSED his ruling and threw the survivors in jail-- AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE JURY.

Seriously-- watch the NEW Showtime docu-drama.
Waco: The aftermath.

 

[oldhorn2]

The BDs did have at least one 50 cal machine gun. You can't buy those at Academy....

 

[2300 Nueces]

The BDs did have at least one 50 cal machine gun. You can't buy those at Academy....

IDK, I bet you could find one behind a pawn shop. When I was 16, the TABC used to wait until I had the case of beer open before they would roll up and take it all.

 

[clob94]

The BDs did have at least one 50 cal machine gun. You can't buy those at Academy....

I almost bought one at a charity auction in NB a few years ago.

 

[outhereincali]

I almost bought one at a charity auction in NB a few years ago.

Why?

 

[TX1972]

I almost bought one at a charity auction in NB a few years ago.

A MG? Or a rifle in .50 BMG?

 

[clob94]

A MG? Or a rifle in .50 BMG?

Barrett 82A1. Like the one the BDs had. Parkerized finish. Carry handle. No optics.

 

[clob94]

Why?

Because it's fun to shoot shit that's a long way off.
Bought my first "long" distance gun when I was 23. 7mm STW. Straight smoke. Flatter than a blown tire. First time I'd ever shot anything at 800m before.
Then I got a 300 UM. Great round, but still preferred the 7STW.
Then I shot a .338 Lapua Mag and the whole world changed.
The .50 was going to be my "fvck you that's why" gun.

 

[oldhorn2]

the 50 cal.....Never forget. When I was at basic training at FT Benning we had to finish this course at night to graduate. .....They put us at the bottom of a very slight incline hill that was the beginning of the course. Our objective was to low crawl towards this Machine gun placement. the course was fairly wide( I have no idea) and was littered with logs we had to crawl over. The course was also littered with charges that were constantly going off. The charges would literally lift you off the ground. Oh, and the machine gun we were to go to was firing live ammunition over our heads.We were all seperated so we couldnt see each other, but we could hear each other yell....well....and whimper.This was a night exercize and it was damned dark. Well, except for the tracers above our heads and the blasts of the charges.

Common sense tells you that the MG is shooting too high to hit you, but that did not help a bit. The test was not timed so I sometimes just rolled on my back and watched to light show. Every time I came to a log I would pray that no charge would go off while I was on the log as I felt I was already too high. Of course one did go off on every log it seemed. The farther along I got the closer those tracers were to me. I will never forget that 50 cal sound......Boom,Boom,Boom... I was damned glad when I got to the end.

I tell you. If it was that damned scary when I knew they were not trying to kill me, I didnt want to ever hear that sound again.

I am sure Fresh will chuckle when he reads this, but at age 19 it definitely got my attention.