OT: What did Dan Patrick do to the teachers?

[2300 Nueces]

You don’t pay for teachers retirement. They have an automatic deduction from their paycheck every month that goes into the teacher retirement fund. So they pay for their own retirement just like you do.

Correct but how is this money invested and at what rate must it grow to cover the DEFINED BENEFIT of the pension plan? Since 2008, what has been the average return for a 10 year treasury? Seven percent, lol surely not. The problem being that most pensions assume a growth rate at a much higher point than is actually attainable. So there's the rub. Most pensions have assumed a higher rate of return on contributions than have actually been attained so we have a shortfall. This is why all retirement plans should be DEFINED CONTRIBUTION as to set the contribution and let reality set the benefit to each individual as the market dictates. Setting a retirement benefit in the form of yearly income based on an average of the last 3 or 5 years of ones employment is not realistic. It's a ponzi scheme that is not attainable, at least not in this economy. In the private sector, "ya get what ya get" as far as the performance of one's own portfolio.

 

[oldschoolcat]

You don’t pay for teachers retirement. They have an automatic deduction from their paycheck every month that goes into the teacher retirement fund. So they pay for their own retirement just like you do.

If there is an employer match, I certainly AM paying for their retirement. And Nueces has it nailed on defined benefit. That's the thing that is un-sustainable.....whether it be schools, counties, police, fire, etc...

And if we want to discuss waste and defined benefits....we can talk about the military

 

[speedstrength]

First off TRS is like teachers social securityff is solvent. It will not require a stayint

Since the collapse and bailout of 2008, a lot has changed in the private sector. Those sectors that are cozy with government and have access to low cost loans have not felt the effect of the actual sting that has taken place. If you look at agriculture, service industries, and many more, the pie has become smaller by a large factor. Everyone, including the school systems are going to have to adjust to the newer normal of stagnating growth with higher inflation. This is the cost of bailing out the financial system in 2008 and will continue for some time. Meaning if you print money to cover bad loans, at some point that money is going to make it into the economy and once the rate of circulation for the currency increases then inflation will kick in... If you have high debt loads at the same time with increasing interest rates, then more will be taken out of the econ to service this debt while money is chasing scarce items like food, oil, gas, etc.... It's called stagflation and it is coming to a town near us all.

Inflation has been at record lows for the past 15 years. The new normal is rapid growing economies with low inflation and low wage growth. That is the new normal and that has nothing to do with school finance here in Texas. You see republicans are in a bit of a pickle. We are a low tax, low service state with a balanced budget, a healthy rainy day fund a booming economy without the state pension issues facing other states. Republicans run on cutting taxes and they have to follow through if they want to stay if office. So while the economy has recovered and tax revenues have increased they still need to find ways to cut. There just isn't a lot of bloat in the Texas budget so in order to cut taxes they had to pass the buck on to local entities. Now they are getting push back because of high property taxes. In January Gov Abbot even said that in order to do property tax reform that the state would have to chip in more for education and stop passing unfunded mandates down to the counties and cities. It would be very easy for the state to adjust funding to shift the burden away from local property taxes. However they can't pass a tax cut if they do that.

This brings us to TRS. Its like our social security. The state is a technically the employer and instead of contributing to social security they contribute to TRS. It is solvent. It will be solvent for a very long time. When they went from the rule of 70 to the rule of 80 all of the solvency issues were solved. The state can keep things the same and TRS will be fine as long as there isn't a mass exodus of people out of the state. So why are republicans going after TRS. Well they need a tax cut and we have a balanced budget amendment. So you make it seem like teachers are doing a bad job and they are over paid and have a really cushy retirement so you can have enough political support to gut the system so they can further cut taxes.

 

[2300 Nueces]

First off TRS is like teachers social securityff is solvent. It will not require a stayint


Inflation has been at record lows for the past 15 years. The new normal is rapid growing economies with low inflation and low wage growth. That is the new normal and that has nothing to do with school finance here in Texas. You see republicans are in a bit of a pickle. We are a low tax, low service state with a balanced budget, a healthy rainy day fund a booming economy without the state pension issues facing other states. Republicans run on cutting taxes and they have to follow through if they want to stay if office. So while the economy has recovered and tax revenues have increased they still need to find ways to cut. There just isn't a lot of bloat in the Texas budget so in order to cut taxes they had to pass the buck on to local entities. Now they are getting push back because of high property taxes. In January Gov Abbot even said that in order to do property tax reform that the state would have to chip in more for education and stop passing unfunded mandates down to the counties and cities. It would be very easy for the state to adjust funding to shift the burden away from local property taxes. However they can't pass a tax cut if they do that.

This brings us to TRS. Its like our social security. The state is a technically the employer and instead of contributing to social security they contribute to TRS. It is solvent. It will be solvent for a very long time. When they went from the rule of 70 to the rule of 80 all of the solvency issues were solved. The state can keep things the same and TRS will be fine as long as there isn't a mass exodus of people out of the state. So why are republicans going after TRS. Well they need a tax cut and we have a balanced budget amendment. So you make it seem like teachers are doing a bad job and they are over paid and have a really cushy retirement so you can have enough political support to gut the system so they can further cut taxes.

Low inflation? Healthcare? What have real estate prices done since 2008? What about gas prices in the last 6 months? Have you checked the cost for real food-- fruit, vegetables, beef, since 2000? We have external costs that come from real markets outside Texas. These are the things driving costs and constraining budgets. The costs of these items are growing faster than the growth rate of the econ.. The low inflation in the last 10 years is due to the collapse in 2008. The Reserve Banks have been pumping cash into the system for 10 years to revive it. It's not so easy to squeeze it back out especially since personal and public debt loads and doubled in 10 years. Money will flow to real things like commodities coupled with increased borrowing costs and we have a recipe for lower funds available for government services.

 

[Longyac]

My father in-law is a superintendent in a fairly small district. He has nearly 40 years in education. He is going to get nearly 100% of his current pay at retirement, he had a prinicipal buddy retire a few years ago that will get over 100% of his final pay annually until he dies. His buddy had a ton of years in, but still a great deal.

I would get around $2,600 a month if I retired at 65 from social security. Whereas my father-in law will get over $10K per month. Our income is in the same ballpark, before you pull out the $18K a year I have to pull out to fund my own 401K.

So comparing teachers retirement to social security is apples to oranges.

And we have stopped speaking about public education, as it gets pretty heated. He is a great guy and I am glad he is taken care of, but damn.

That kind of retirement package got phased out in 9/1/2005. If your hire date is after 8/31/2005 you have the lowest funded retirement in the nation. https://www.trs.texas.gov/Pages/active_member_eligibilty_requirements.aspx

 

[speedstrength]

As a whole mostly a flat to downward trend. Its not the 14% from the 70's and 80's. Since the crash there have only been 10 months where inflation was above 3% and 12 months with deflation. The average has been less than 2% a year.

Check out the historical data. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-inflation-rates/

 

[speedstrength]

Why TRS isn't like CPS (Chicago Public Schools)

CPS pension. Teachers contribute 2%, District contributes 7.4%
TRS - Teachers contribute 7.7% State contributes 6.8%
CPS Calculator - % of final years salary = Years of Service x 2.2
TRS Calculator - % of average of final five years = years of service x 2.3
Average CPS Salary 71,000
Average Texas Teacher Salary 45,000

 

[2300 Nueces]

As a whole mostly a flat to downward trend. Its not the 14% from the 70's and 80's. Since the crash there have only been 10 months where inflation was above 3% and 12 months with deflation. The average has been less than 2% a year.

Check out the historical data. http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/historical-inflation-rates/

Right but the average rate of inflation has still been greater than the average growth rate so the real rate is compounding at a rate greater than the growth of the economy which is inflationary. I can understand the elected officials hesitancy to not fund anything at the pre 2008 levels considering the immediate deflationary period following 2008. We are about to enter some significant inflation in the next decade. I am in favor of inviting competition into the school system as competition makes everyone better. I suspect this is becoming a greater issue as the rate of inflation increases as cited on your chart.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Why TRS isn't like CPS (Chicago Public Schools)

CPS pension. Teachers contribute 2%, District contributes 7.4%
TRS - Teachers contribute 7.7% State contributes 6.8%
CPS Calculator - % of final years salary = Years of Service x 2.2
TRS Calculator - % of average of final five years = years of service x 2.3
Average CPS Salary 71,000
Average Texas Teacher Salary 45,000

I think you will find that if competition and privatization are introduced into the public school system that teachers salaries will increase dramatically, especially the good ones. I have a construction business and skilled labor is gold. Those guys do very well. I have a sub contractor that dropped out of high school that clears 100k/year easily.

 

[speedstrength]

Right but the average rate of inflation has still been greater than the average growth rate so the real rate is compounding at a rate greater than the growth of the economy which is inflationary. I can understand the elected officials hesitancy to not fund anything at the pre 2008 levels considering the immediate deflationary period following 2008. We are about to enter some significant inflation in the next decade. I am in favor of inviting competition into the school system as competition makes everyone better. I suspect this is becoming a greater issue as the rate of inflation increases as cited on your chart.

You are not correct. Growth in terms of GDP is corrected for with inflation. So if GDP was 5% and inflation was 2% then GDP would be reported as 3%. Since we have had about 8 years of straight growth even though rather anemic at some point you can't say that inflation has been greater than growth rate. That means we would have been in a recession at some point.

We also have privatization of public schools in Texas in the form of charter schools. The students at charter schools perform about as well as their public school counterparts but their teachers get paid a lot less than those at traditional public schools. I can't speak for other parts of the state but in San Antonio charters are killing Catholic schools and some of the other smaller private christian schools in the poorer parts of town. They aren't really doing much to the public schools

 

[2300 Nueces]

You are not correct. Growth in terms of GDP is corrected for with inflation. So if GDP was 5% and inflation was 2% then GDP would be reported as 3%. Since we have had about 8 years of straight growth even though rather anemic at some point you can't say that inflation has been greater than growth rate. That means we would have been in a recession at some point.

We also have privatization of public schools in Texas in the form of charter schools. The students at charter schools perform about as well as their public school counterparts but their teachers get paid a lot less than those at traditional public schools. I can't speak for other parts of the state but in San Antonio charters are killing Catholic schools and some of the other smaller private christian schools in the poorer parts of town. They aren't really doing much to the public schools

Do the charter schools get vouchers or are they funded as the public schools are funded? I find it hard to believe that excellent teachers wouldn't bring top dollar. Poor teachers, well that's a different story.

I'm not going to go into a discussion on how the government figures for inflation in their GDP numbers but I will say this, the prices for items that are scarce, ie needed everyday, have been going up without much abatement.

 

[speedstrength]

Charters are funded by the same formula that public schools are. Private schools that pay teachers the same or better than public schools are expensive. Places like St Stephen's or St Andrew's that run around 25k a year.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Charters are funded by the same formula that public schools are. Private schools that pay teachers the same or better than public schools are expensive. Places like St Stephen's or St Andrew's that run around 25k a year.

This is my opinion. If you decouple the funding by student and allow each student to carry a voucher for his/her specified tax dollars, then schools will focus on the client rather than the bureaucracy that has developed around school funding. The school systems have become jobs programs for adults... In the private sector, the paper pushers and middle men get cut and minimized in importance at an ongoing rate. It's the people that interact with the client that get the best pay, aside from the risk taker which is ownership. However, if ownership has to compete then profit margins get thinned and competition for top talent takes center stage. Enter the top teacher, who would be the stars the the clients (parents/students) would pay for. They don't care to pay for superintendents that walk around, push papers, and make administrative decisions.....

 

[oldschoolcat]

And superstar teachers that don't particularly tow the party line but earn the praise of students and parents alike won't be fired for not "playing ball".

 

[speedstrength]

This is my opinion. If you decouple the funding by student and allow each student to carry a voucher for his/her specified tax dollars, then schools will focus on the client rather than the bureaucracy that has developed around school funding. The school systems have become jobs programs for adults... In the private sector, the paper pushers and middle men get cut and minimized in importance at an ongoing rate. It's the people that interact with the client that get the best pay, aside from the risk taker which is ownership. However, if ownership has to compete then profit margins get thinned and competition for top talent takes center stage. Enter the top teacher, who would be the stars the the clients (parents/students) would pay for. They don't care to pay for superintendents that walk around, push papers, and make administrative decisions.....

That already happens. The school funding is based on student attendence per day. If a student goes from a public school to a charter schools then the tax dollars follow. You didn't know that?

 

[oldschoolcat]

Speed, back to the original question. Can you give me a 2-3 line description of what PATRICK himself is doing? Because what I have read pertains specifically to him and it is quite vicious.

 

[speedstrength]

Reduce state funding for public education.
Privatize TRS
Private school vouchers with no strings attached meaning private schools can refuse to enroll students and they wouldn't be subject to the same accountability measurements as public schools.(no STARR testing)

 

[2300 Nueces]

That already happens. The school funding is based on student attendence per day. If a student goes from a public school to a charter schools then the tax dollars follow. You didn't know that?

It's not the same. The state handles the money instead of the customer in the current format so there is no accountability from purchasers. Once schools have to fight for customers, the bloat is cut and the resources go to pleasing the customer. As it is, the parents who care get no say in the day to day decisions in a school district. It's all run by the administration who is accountable to the bureaucracies and unions that have grown up around the funding source. I'm no fool, the graft withing the school systems is not hard to see. You have even admitted that it exists. Anyway, money trading hands from bureaucrat to bureaucrat is not the same as customer to service provider. You need to get out in the real world and make a payroll. It will open your eyes, lol.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Reduce state funding for public education.
Privatize TRS
Private school vouchers with no strings attached meaning private schools can refuse to enroll students and they wouldn't be subject to the same accountability measurements as public schools.(no STARR testing)

This would be awesome. STARR testing is just the bare minimum anyway. If we are shooting for barely smart, it's a waste of time. Trade schools are underrated in my opinion. Introducing most young men to physical labor at an early age does wonders for the intellect.

 

[speedstrength]

It's not the same. The state handles the money instead of the customer in the current format so there is no accountability from purchasers. Once schools have to fight for customers, the bloat is cut and the resources go to pleasing the customer. As it is, the parents who care get no say in the day to day decisions in a school district. It's all run by the administration who is accountable to the bureaucracies and unions that have grown up around the funding source. I'm no fool, the graft withing the school systems is not hard to see. You have even admitted that it exists. Anyway, money trading hands from bureaucrat to bureaucrat is not the same as customer to service provider. You need to get out in the real world and make a payroll. It will open your eyes, lol.

I coached and taught for 6 years, I was a college strength coach for a year and I ran a private sports performance training center for 5 years. I did budgets, hired and fired coaches and assisted with sales and marketing. I spent 18 months as an ergonomics specialist sub contractor at the Toyota plant.

Texas doesn't have any teachers unions. The only public sector unions allowed in the state are police and fire.

Charter schools are run by private companies. They bill the state for the students they serve.

I did not admit to any grifting. I don't agree with the amount of money we spend on testing but everything is out in the open.

 

[2300 Nueces]

I coached and taught for 6 years, I was a college strength coach for a year and I ran a private sports performance training center for 5 years. I did budgets, hired and fired coaches and assisted with sales and marketing. I spent 18 months as an ergonomics specialist sub contractor at the Toyota plant.

Texas doesn't have any teachers unions. The only public sector unions allowed in the state are police and fire.

Charter schools are run by private companies. They bill the state for the students they serve.

I did not admit to any grifting. I don't agree with the amount of money we spend on testing but everything is out in the open.

Peace bro. I'll see you at the ballot box.

 

[TX1972]

Finally found the k12 numbers. In 2008 the split was 18 billion in state funding and 18 billion in local funding. In 2017/18 it was 19 billion in state funding and 27 billion in local funding but due to an explosion in population that is actually lower in per student funding than 2008. Still looking for those numbers. In order to lower property taxes the state needs to increase funding for k12

NO. Private schools can p

Reduce state funding for public education.
Privatize TRS
Private school vouchers with no strings attached meaning private schools can refuse to enroll students and they wouldn't be subject to the same accountability measurements as public schools.(no STARR testing)

All schools getting government funds should be tested. Results (anonymous) public. Parents can decide where to go. Students need to know their own score. The Episcopal school my kids went to let teachers kids go free. Many stayed after their own kids moved on.

 

[oldschoolcat]

Reduce state funding for public education.
Privatize TRS
Private school vouchers with no strings attached meaning private schools can refuse to enroll students and they wouldn't be subject to the same accountability measurements as public schools.(no STARR testing)

Thanks sir. Appreciate the info.

 

[horn4life11]

If there is an employer match, I certainly AM paying for their retirement. And Nueces has it nailed on defined benefit. That's the thing that is un-sustainable.....whether it be schools, counties, police, fire, etc...

And if we want to discuss waste and defined benefits....we can talk about the military

There is NO employer match. I suggest you do some research before making statements.

 

[oldschoolcat]

There is NO employer match. I suggest you do some research before making statements.

According to this thread the contribution is teachers 7.7%, State puts in 6.8%. Not sure what your definition of employer match is, but that 6.8% isn't some kind of David Blaine magic trick.

Sure, it's not an actual "match" of your contribution level. But it is free money being paid for by someone other than the teacher.

 

[Longyac]

I think you will find that if competition and privatization are introduced into the public school system that teachers salaries will increase dramatically, especially the good ones. I have a construction business and skilled labor is gold. Those guys do very well. I have a sub contractor that dropped out of high school that clears 100k/year easily.

Public school teacher salaries are not the free market as govt bureaucrats set them. Top private schools cost $25K a year to be able to pay teachers higher salaries. Texas spends $9K per student in public schools and only $5.5K of that is on pupil instruction. Where is this money going to magically come from to pay public teachers more? I don't see anyone volunteering for more taxes.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

 

[2300 Nueces]

Public school teacher salaries are not the free market as govt bureaucrats set them. Top private schools cost $25K a year to be able to pay teachers higher salaries. Texas spends $9K per student in public schools and only $5.5K of that is on pupil instruction. Where is this money going to magically come from to pay public teachers more? I don't see anyone volunteering for more taxes.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

You have to abandon the tax and spend mindset. Yes, vouchers come from tax dollars but once you put the money in a parent's hands then you reconfigure the whole framework. Currently, the bureaucracy is the costumer because they have the tax funds. Once parents become the customer, the industry will completely change for the better. Can you imagine football recruits being told which college to attend and what position they will play?

 

[speedstrength]

You have to abandon the tax and spend mindset. Yes, vouchers come from tax dollars but once you put the money in a parent's hands then you reconfigure the whole framework. Currently, the bureaucracy is the costumer because they have the tax funds. Once parents become the customer, the industry will completely change for the better. Can you imagine football recruits being told which college to attend and what position they will play?

You do realize that our public schools that have less than 20% of the population on free or reduced lumch are some of the best in the world.

Charter schools already introduced competition into the market. If parents don't like their public schools they can take them to any charter school of their choice.

Let's say we do go to a full on voucher system. How would you distribute funds to nearly 6 million kids without adding massive amounts of extra personnel to oversee the payments.

 

[clob94]

There is NO employer match. I suggest you do some research before making statements.

That's not totally true. Some school districts... very few mind you, have an optional retirement plan called a 457. They contribute to their teachers retirement based on incentives like "not missing any days at work because substitute teachers cost extra". Again, this is a very small % of districts that do this.

 

[speedstrength]

That's not totally true. Some school districts... very few mind you, have an optional retirement plan called a 457. They contribute to their teachers retirement based on incentives like "not missing any days at work because substitute teachers cost extra". Again, this is a very small % of districts that do this.

I was in a district with a 403b match based on teacher attendance. It lasted a year because they didn't realize most teachers had greater than 95% attendence.

 

[Longyac]

You have to abandon the tax and spend mindset. Yes, vouchers come from tax dollars but once you put the money in a parent's hands then you reconfigure the whole framework. Currently, the bureaucracy is the costumer because they have the tax funds. Once parents become the customer, the industry will completely change for the better. Can you imagine football recruits being told which college to attend and what position they will play?

You should read on Ohio and Ecot and other similar stories regarding charters from around the nation. Either educators aren't very good business people or poor business people are entering the charter arena.

The fact that states that have charters aren't leading to stories of success that proponents can trot out instead of keeping on riding the promise of charters should tell you a lot.

BTW- My kids are in their 7th year of private school.

 

[2300 Nueces]

You should read on Ohio and Ecot and other similar stories regarding charters from around the nation. Either educators aren't very good business people or poor business people are entering the charter arena.



The fact that states that have charters aren't leading to stories of success that proponents can trot out instead of keeping on riding the promise of charters should tell you a lot.

BTW- My kids are in their 7th year of private school.

I hear you. Most people don't have the discipline to run a successful business. Let them go out of business and someone else Takeover.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Public school teacher salaries are not the free market as govt bureaucrats set them. Top private schools cost $25K a year to be able to pay teachers higher salaries. Texas spends $9K per student in public schools and only $5.5K of that is on pupil instruction. Where is this money going to magically come from to pay public teachers more? I don't see anyone volunteering for more taxes.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html

The idea would be to squeeze more of the 9k into teachers pockets while streamlining bureaucracy. Making owners compete on a level playing field will acomplish this. I would add that another goal would be to grow the pie of 9k per pupil without increased taxation.

 

[oldschoolcat]

Does that $9K include real estate and facilities? If so, I have some ideas where we can cut....

My kids elementary school is nicer than any school building I ever attended K-12, and about 75% of the ones I used at A&M. The new HS athletic facilities are insane....spare no expense types of developments. Meanwhile parents are buying supplies for low income students and installing playground equipment out of their fundraisers.

 

[Longyac]

Does that $9K include real estate and facilities? If so, I have some ideas where we can cut....

My kids elementary school is nicer than any school building I ever attended K-12, and about 75% of the ones I used at A&M. The new HS athletic facilities are insane....spare no expense types of developments. Meanwhile parents are buying supplies for low income students and installing playground equipment out of their fundraisers.

I think that stuff falls under the $2.5K per student other category within the $9K. Other is 28% of Texas spending per child.
http://www.governing.com/gov-data/education-data/state-education-spending-per-pupil-data.html