Scared Muslims
- Thread starter FlourBluffHorn
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Wow... ok, I'm sure that people who were shot in drive by shootings or who were merely injured in a shooting incident or who were in incidents that can be discounted because one shooting happened a little while after another or whatever are glad you aren't taking THOSE into account when talking about gun violence in America. Like I said, there are different types of ways to look at it. But you have to get pretty picky about shrugging off people being shot (or, you know, actively trying to discount the situation for political reasons...?) to get down to 4 incidents for the year.
I'm sure that the families of the 3 people who died, and the 9 other people (5 police, 4 civilians) who were injured in the Colorado Springs shooting feel like it's important not to consider that a mass shooting unless another one of them end up dying as a result... just for example.
If you want to say that some incidents out of 355 don't fit a certain profile, fine. Heck, I haven't read up on every single one of them. Maybe I'd agree with you on some of them. But I'm pretty sure that by most standards there would be far more than 4, even if it would be less than 355.
Going to a source that actually admits that it has a political agenda to come up with "the facts" is kind of silly. If you want to use stats from the FBI, or from academic studies, or from multiple newspapers and compare and contrast them, or whatever, fine. But Breitbart doesn't hide it's identity as being politically one-sided.
Terms must be operationally defined-what is considered a mass shooting and what is not?
It is interesting that this POTUS immediately called for gun control before he knew anything about the attack. For example, he continues to refuse to call it Radical Islamic terrorism after the facts come out saying that is exactly what it is. This POTUS lies after the attack and says he and his administration ensure that America is safe from ISIS. Later, we learn the attackers pledged allegiance to ISIS. We are at war with radical Islam and this administration will not protect you.
It is interesting that this POTUS immediately called for gun control before he knew anything about the attack. For example, he continues to refuse to call it Radical Islamic terrorism after the facts come out saying that is exactly what it is. This POTUS lies after the attack and says he and his administration ensure that America is safe from ISIS. Later, we learn the attackers pledged allegiance to ISIS. We are at war with radical Islam and this administration will not protect you.
The Lubys shooting? Really? That is a reach back in history. Should we ban pressure cookers (Boston Marathon bombers)? People are the problem, not the objects they use.
Gun control has always been the agenda of this POTUS. He races to the mic after every shooting and that is the first thing he says. "We need gun control." But, don't call them Islamic terrorists after we learn who they are. His agenda is obvious.
There are issues like this on both sides. The Right was jumping at the "keep them out" stuff to Syrian refugees the almost immediately after the Paris tragedy, without knowing details. Most if not all of the people who carried out those attacks were European nationals, not Syrian refugees.
That said, yes, he started calling for gun control. Because the day before was an incident too. And earlier that day. And weeks before. And months before. And nothing happens as a result.
And no, he doesn't say "Radical Islam" because he realizes that the purpose behind that term gaining so much political traction is that it helps to cause unrest and anger towards a whole religion. Which actually makes things worse, not better. ISIS would love nothing more than for the US to come off as a huge, racist, xenophobic culture where we shun (or worse) our Islamic citizens, and where we refuse to help our fellow man because of their religious affiliation. That's how they push reasonable people to think that we're monsters. You can be firm on being against terror and not cross that line.
Love when people jump to the idea that everyone in favor of "gun control" or "gun regulation" is trying to "ban" guns. Just shows why we can't actually have productive political discussions these days.
... and since people are the problem, then let's look into that. I'm fine with any rational solution that leads to less dead people. What's so wrong with a more standardized purchasing and registration process for people purchasing guns like we have with cars? Or what about some kind of competency tests? Or, if you want to be a "good guy with a gun"... what's wrong with some kind of standardization for some basic training with them? Or coming up with which weapons and/or ammo make sense for civilians when it comes to sport or self defense... and people who know guns know that "assault weapons" is a false category to go after, then ok, why not have those people who are so knowledgeable say "actually, this would be a better line to draw" when it comes to what should or shouldn't be able to be carried around or stockpiled by the general public. Or if we all feel that it's something mental health related, then why not look into how we can expand access to mental healthcare since in ANY form (pre or post Obamacare) mental healthcare is expensive and hard to access?
But I mean, earlier the same day of the shooting, Congress voted down an attempt to lift the ban that prevents the CDC from studying gun-related violence. Those are studies relating to the PEOPLE that you're talking about.
I've never advocated for banning all guns. But the same people who are the biggest "they'll take our guns" people are also blocking attempts to do anything else to help prevent most of these situations. They even just voted against preventing people on the terror watch list from being able to purchase guns.
I'm not saying any one of these things is a perfect solution, but "some bad guys will still find a way" isn't an excuse to do nothing. And finding a hole in a possible plan to make things better isn't a reason to entirely shoot down that plan. Why not try to come up with a way to fix that hole. Or come up with something better. Instead of doing nothing and telling people "whelp, if you don't arm yourself that's your own fault!" and just assuming that lots of people are going to get shot no matter what so why even try to prevent that...
Define a productive discussion?
We should be engaging in dialogue rather than discussion. Discussion has the same root word as percussion & concussion, which means to break things up and won't go far beyond our own points of view. Dialogue comes from a Greek root word "logos" or "word." It means "the meaning of the word." "Dia" means through. Combined, dia-logue makes possible the flow of meaning.
We should be engaging in dialogue rather than discussion. Discussion has the same root word as percussion & concussion, which means to break things up and won't go far beyond our own points of view. Dialogue comes from a Greek root word "logos" or "word." It means "the meaning of the word." "Dia" means through. Combined, dia-logue makes possible the flow of meaning.
I think it's pretty clear that my point was if a person assumes that the person on the other side of an issue is only interested in the most extreme version of their side of an issue, rather than seeing if there's any middle ground because probably neither side likes that innocent people end up dead... then that doesn't lead to progress, that leads to loud politicians spouting talking points, and nothing actually happening.
For example, all of the things I said above. As opposed to assuming that everyone who is in favor of some sort of gun control wants to take all the guns away.
One city. One situation. And it's not an isolated situation where the neighboring states and cities don't have an affect on it.
Again, let's take one problem and then say "whelp, guess we can't do anything about anything, because hey... this one thing they did hasn't fixed it all".
The POTUS is charged with the highest legal, moral, and ethical responsibility. As such, he cannot rush to judgement when it fits his agenda and demonstrate restraint when it fits his agenda. His agenda is suppose to be the American people's agenda. However, too often, he deviates on his own path when the majority of Americans disagree (Obama Care and accepting lots of Syrian refugees in various US States).
Some people think "gun control" is the first step to begin taking American's guns away. The same way that Social Security spawned into the largest American entitlement program in history. It sounded good at first, now look at it after so many things have been added to it and so many people are dependent on it. Why can't a gun control law evolve the same way over 70 years and become a monster that destroys America?
Like criminals in Chicago can get guns from neighboring areas and kill defenseless innocents, the same would happen across America with guns brought in from neighboring Mexico. The border city of Juarez is the most dangerous city in Mexico.
The sooner that we (collectively) realize that people that hate America are the enemy and not guns, we will solve this problem. Teaching hate for the purpose of killing American people should not be protected anywhere (church, mosque, or school) on American soil. Call it what it is and seek it out before it seeks you.
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I would not mind dropping leaflets to uneducated Muslims why this path of killing people is going to be a bad path to go down and be prepared to die for doing it.But, but, but we are fighting ISIS. We are just dropping leaflets in advance of our bombing runs warning people it's coming. Yes no agenda here.
And there inlies the problem. An extreme/radical view of religion is at the root of "American Hate".
How do we solve this?
We cannot allow mosques to teach this hate. We are at war with Islamic terrorism. These mosques must be closed and the teachers arrested for war crimes against America. The criminals locked up, & await trial until the war on Islamic terrorism is over.
What do you think about the fact that the mom was living with them and was supposedly there when they left with their gear?
She still didn't know anything? BS
The mom is a criminal too. There was too much military-type hardware present for a person that just arrived from Pakistan. But, we let the Bin Ladens fly back to Saudi after 9-11 happened. Our government is corrupt.
In your opine, does Obama being a Muslim give him extra motivation to be so relaxed with this whole situation?
If it's a conflict of interest, which I think it is, then I don't see him to be any more fit to protect me than some radical Islamic terrorist.
I am no big fan of Obama. Why are you calling him a Muslim? The man has has said he is Chrisitian. Hate him all you want...more power to you....but how do you know he is Muslim? Ever heard of giving false witness? that is what you are doing. If he claims Jesus as his Lord and Savior who are you to say he is not? You honestly think he has said he has been a Christian his whole life because he knew he would be President? you also believe the paper in Hawaii was a lie and he was not a U.S. citizen right?
Hate of a political party is clouding your judgment. I can tell by what you post you do not think for yourself. You let an ideology define who you are.
No political party will ever define me, or tell me how to think. I can do that for myself. I hate FAR right and FAR left crap so bad. I will say this the Far right is getting farther right by the day. I hope the far left doesn't try to match them. Our country will be torn apart by political parties and the absolute HATE that comes from them. The all or nothing crowd is out tonight.
This statement could really come from either side...."They are destroying America" and it is what the sheep latch onto and run with.
This statement could really come from either side...."They are destroying America" and it is what the sheep latch onto and run with.
Ok, but even if we go with the super-strict, right-leaning, slanted to make a political point, Brietbart article on mass shootings in 2015 that says there were only 4 because in other instances some of the shooting victims didn't actually die, or they were drive by shootings, or they ran down the street a ways before shooting someone else, or whatever other technicality they could use to dismiss other actual mass shootings (like the one a few days ago in Colorado Springs)... 2 of those 4 weren't people who claimed to hate America. The guy in Oregon's motivation is murky but there seems to be an anti-some-religions and white supremacist slant to some of his reading materials, but I'll admit I haven't read enough to know. Probably not "hate America" though. The guy in Colorado Springs and the guy in South Carolina probably even did it because they thought they were being proud Americans.
If you can find a way to solve the problems of gangs, substance abuse, religious extremism (regardless of what religion it is associated with), racism, and just plane carelessness/stupidity (which I think cover a lot of the "human" issues at play here)... then give me the solution and I'm totally on board! In the mean time, while you're coming up with that massive solution, I'm open to hearing other ideas that keep people from starting their day normal and winding up dead. Call them temporary attempts at solutions until we work out the way to keep people from all those other things.
The far left is advancing through our universities. You are showing your "side" by attacking the right and claiming they are getting further right and "hoping" the left doesn't fall further. That was easy.
If I'm mistaken on Obama being a Muslim, that's simply my ignorance. I do believe he had some sort of tie, however big or small.
Your tone of discussion is beginning to resemble that of the "little kids table" that clob mentioned earlier in this or the other thread on these subjects. Just letting you know that.
Haha, ok. First paragraph, saying something that I didn't say.
Second paragraph, is one of those things that I don't even know what to say about. There's nothing to support he's a Muslim. It's actually factual that he has attended Christian church services. And again, I said absolutely nothing on the topic.
Third paragraph... basically the same kind of thing that a person says when they're trolling on a sports topic. But on a political topic on a sports message board. I wonder if that means you might be a troll?
Hey stupid, your retort to my response in which I was responding to another poster, is very stupid. Especially since you thought my message was towards you.
Is your skin crawling or what?
I didn't make it a full two minutes into this before Obama talked of his "Muslim heritage".
His words, not mine.
I have drifted in and out here, not following it post by post.I have discovered that I am not sure which side everyone is arguing for.I was the one that brought up the Lubies shooting( Bitty was right....I hadnt noticed he was talking about 2015...my bad there) but someone else used that to assume I was for gun control. Nothing further from the truth. I also said I took 2nd amnedment rights to allow me to own artillery....I am ok with that.
What I said was the current regulations on gun control are not followed. What makes anyone think more regulation will solve anything....it wont be followed either. This guy was on the no fly list, but flew anyway...to the middle east....that didnt raise a flag?...hello!!!
Just because I dont think being Muslim equates to hating America doesnt mean I think gun control is a good idea.Every gun I own is loaded....available....on red!
What I said was the current regulations on gun control are not followed. What makes anyone think more regulation will solve anything....it wont be followed either. This guy was on the no fly list, but flew anyway...to the middle east....that didnt raise a flag?...hello!!!
Just because I dont think being Muslim equates to hating America doesnt mean I think gun control is a good idea.Every gun I own is loaded....available....on red!
You should definitely carry it loaded yet on safety.
I didn't really follow that part of the responses either!
Never. (Unless you mean cocked-and-locked -- but my CCPs don't have manual safeties.)
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