Big 12 expansion..Big 14??

[HornsRuleU]

Agreed. If we absolutely must expand, I'd vote for Cinci and UCF. Cinci gives WVU a neighbor, this keeps the Mountain time zone out of it and it opens up two hotbeds of recruiting: Ohio and Florida.

Either that or go West, drop WVU and add BYU, Colorado St and Boise St. Or the Arizona schools. Being all over the map is dumb.

Great map.

It's no accident that Boren of OU is in favor of expansion, in my opinion. OU is near the center of the Big 12, as you can see from the map above. ("Click to expand")

As it looks to expand, the Big 12 is going to have to look farther and farther away, to prefer crap over complete and total dogshit.

The Big 12's geographic center is (35.92760294, -95.4060583). That's in NE Oklahoma -- Wagoner, OK -- which is closer to the Kansas schools than to TCU.

Why does this matter? One reason is money. With longer trips come greater travel costs.

Another reason is win-loss record. There's a competitive advantage to being near the center. The athletic teams (student-athletes, coaches and support staff) of schools near the geographic center are going to have short to moderate length trips for away games, or to neutral sites. Those farther away are going to have some long trips to away games. Changing time zones also affects performance. Over an entire season, and especially over the decades, it's going to affect the W-L columns.

So, expansion that includes a distant school, say, UConn or BYU, is going to have less impact on an Oklahoma school, than it will on Texas, the southernmost outlier. (As the map above shows, the outliers are Texas Tech (west), ISU (north), WVU (east) and Texas (south). So, don't be surprised if Boren (etc.) pushes for northern teams to be added.

Distance from the Center of the Big 12:

1. Oklahoma State, 88 miles from Wagoner, OK, as the crow flies
2. Oklahoma, 125 mi.
3. Kansas, 209
4. Kansas State University, 235
5. TCU, 249
6. Baylor, 318
7. Texas Tech, 401
8. Texas, 412
9. Iowa State, 432
10. West Virginia, 880 mi.

Distances of Candidates, from Current Center:

1. SMU, 227 miles from Wagoner, OK, the current geographic center of the current Big 12
2. Memphis, 313
3. Houston, 429
4. Rice, 429
5. Northern Illinois, 546
6. Air Force, 561
7. Colorado State, 615
8. Cincinnati, 636
9. Florida State, 745
10. Arizona, 924
11. BYU, 931
12. South Florida, 934
13. Arizona State, 968
14. Central Florida, 971
15. East Carolina, 1010
16. Boise State, 1221
17. UConn, 1305

Distances from The University:

1. Rice, 145 miles from the "Forty" Acres
2. Houston, 149
3. SMU, 185
4. Memphis, 563
5. Air Force, 726
6. Arizona, 792
7. Florida State, 801
8. Colorado State, 822
9. Arizona State, 876
10. South Florida, 936
11. Northern Illinois, 946
12. Cincinnati, 966
13. Central Florida, 1001
14. BYU, 1042
15. East Carolina, 1234
16. Boise State, 1368
17. UConn, 1622

The needs of the Mountaineers, as the biggest outlier and longest traveler, ought to be considered during (any) expansion.

Distances from WVU:

1. Cincinnati, 246 miles from Morgantown, WV
2. East Carolina, 313
3. UConn, 430
4. Northern Illinois, 488
5. Memphis, 630
6. Florida State, 681
7. Central Florida, 767
8. South Florida, 812
9. SMU, 1046
10. Houston, 1108
11. Rice, 1111
12. Colorado State, 1325
13. Air Force, 1329
14. BYU, 1670
15. Arizona, 1798
16. Arizona State, 1829
17. Boise State, 1877

The upshot? Just considering travel, which also can HELP recruiting by pitting nearby teams together (all the UH haters forget that), Memphis and N. Illinois should be given consideration. Forget BYU, Boise State, the Arizona teams, etc.

 

[BringBackRoyal]

Snyder probably meant to be vague, but it's wishful thinking on his part. He wants to return to those Big 8 rivalries. None of those 3 teams is a realistic possibility.

Who would want Colorado or Mizzou, at this point?

Besides, Colorado's AD says CU has no interest in returning to the Big 12. He says their alumni base and recruiting areas are towards California. Judging by their present roster, they recruit from California and Arizona, plus Colorado, of course.

The Big 12 can try with Nebraska, but Big Ten money is going to be hard to give up. They're probably dissatisfied, and there's probably some dissatisfaction with NU from the rest of the Big Ten, but there's unlikely to be a change there.

Similarly, Mizzou is going to hold onto SEC money. Besides, Mizzou is radioactive right now, with players going on strike, entirely new leadership and complaints about racial strife that are probably mostly B.S. Their AD thought Mizzou was worse than Baylor, which should tell you something. Who would want to stay there, with the chance that you blink the wrong way and suddenly the football team decides you're out? What a flippin' mess... It's like you had a trojan horse stolen from you; the Big 12 lucked out when they left.

We would take any of those schools back, but the Big 12 has no leverage to land any of them -- or any other P5 school. We're an unstable demographic flyweight of a conference, and there is really no solution to this problem. People have to accept that not everything can be fixed. No P5 school can look at the medium- and long-term fundamentals of this conference and think that coming here is a good idea.

 

[BringBackRoyal]

So, expansion that includes a distant school, say, UConn or BYU, is going to have less impact on an Oklahoma school, than it will on Texas, the southernmost outlier. (As the map above shows, the outliers are Texas Tech (west), ISU (north), WVU (east) and Texas (south). So, don't be surprised if Boren (etc.) pushes for northern teams to be added.

I think geographic positioning can be a competitive disadvantage for some schools when we're talking about travel times (it definitely is for WVU, and it would be for BYU or UConn, for example, along with most of the other worthless schools we're looking to add), but much of that is very heavily mitigated for a school like Texas that isn't that far from most of the rest of the schools in an age when our players are taking direct flights on chartered jets with nothing but first-class seats. If we were facing long delays and stopovers on commercial flights -- or if we were traveling by bus -- it would be a real issue.

 

[BringBackRoyal]

I seriously hope those sources are out of the loop bc they are making this sound like it's a money grab

I hope they're at least in the loop about the odds Cougar High faces.

It looks very likely that we're all going to go for the short-sighted money grab and add a bunch of whale sh*t to the conference, but far worse would be inviting in another in-state parasite, creating further expectations and obligations for UT that hinder our ability to make the optimal move in realignment when this dump finally blows up.

The very last thing we need is one more in-state barnacle we're politically expected to worry about post-Big 12.

 

[Mister Moses]

Yea Boren's looking for the advantage of being in the center of the big 12 alright. Then the rest of his cronies told him about jet airplanes. He was thinking about the savings that would open up many advantages over somebody. Texas will make the decisions in the expansion. I think it's funny Texas wants Houston. I would love that. Tom Herman vs Charlie Strong both from the Urban Meyer coaching tree. I just want OU to leave. The SWC was a Texas run conference and the big 12 as well. Texas is not a good leader of any conference in history. The teams that left are sitting sweet if you like money. I hope OU leaves before I die.

 

[TexExSpur]

Tell OU to grow a pair and run things...

 

[BringBackRoyal]

I think it's funny Texas wants Houston.

You don't know what Texas wants, you thimble-brained twit.

 

[cwillfromdatx]

I've been sitting here looking at the expansion options and I see a few possibilities. 1) I think if we take UCF and offer them 5 million per year for 5 years. I know they would jump on it. I think everyone would love to fly to Disney world every other year. Great recruiting area as well. 2) take Cincy and offer the same amount as UCF. It gives WV and partner but the bad thing to me is the weather. 3 & 4) AZ and ASU. Make a killer offer to them both. Offer 25 million a year for 5 years. They get to keep their 3rd tear rights and make extra money off it. It's a hot Azz state but night games would be ideal. That makes 14 teams. 7 north and 7 south. North comprises of OU, ISU, OSU, KU, KSU, WV & Cincy. The south would be AZ, ASU, UT, TT, BU, TCU & UCF. The conference gets the Phoenix, Tuscan, Orlando and a good portion of Cincy and the state of Ohio.

 

[Longyac]

Cincinnati is is the SW corner of Ohio. Is is about 60 mile north of Louisville and it is further south than Morgantown. It's weather isn't Cleveland's. Cincinnati will get an occasional late November snow.

 

[2300 Nueces]

At this point, because of our lack of foresight, we have an eight year stretch of playing in Conference USA. Hopefully TPTB at our school learn from this. It's going to be different, let's make the best of it.

 

[oldhorn2]

Texas doesnt want Houston...Red McCombs wants Houston and the biggest reason is it will help him sell cars.

 

[TexExSpur]

Texas doesnt want Houston...Red McCombs wants Houston and the biggest reason is it will help him sell cars.

Red needs to silent his BS rumblings, he lost his filter long ago and now all he does is feed ammo to haters.

 

[BringBackRoyal]

Red needs to silent his BS rumblings, he lost his filter long ago and now all he does is feed ammo to haters.

Apparently Red went on an anti-Charlie tirade on the radio yesterday, saying that Mack had left him a tremendously talented roster, that Charlie couldn't even hold onto a top-50 national player in Raulerson (LMAO), and other nonsense.

At this point, he's just a senile blowhard whose ego hasn't diminished with his mind. Just open your checkbook and shut your embarrassing mouth, Red.

 

[DrinkToIt]

I know UH has improved but .... Has anyone been to a game in Houston when Horns or Aggies played? Its 75% visitors. And that includes the Andre Ware years. Even Baylor fans would outnumber Cougar fans at Houston games. To take a school because they are good today (and BTW - they are!), but knowing that they will certainly lose their coach in a year or two, is extremely short sighted and just plain dumb. But then again, this is the conference that has one true champion.

UH has as much or more tradition and success as TCU. And Baylor, KSU and ISU are only bigger names because they've been in a power 5 conference all this time. Houston is one of the top 5 producers of NFL talent in the country and produces MLB and NBA talent at a pretty constant clip. To say that UH in basketball, football and baseball is worse than KSU or ISU or that UH wouldn't quickly surpass those schools in a short amount of time if added to the B12 is laughable. Texas and OU can't get every top Houston area kid. There's enough to field several D1 schools. UH would compete at least as well as TCU and it would happen within 5 years.

 

[2300 Nueces]

UH has as much or more tradition and success as TCU. And Baylor, KSU and ISU are only bigger names because they've been in a power 5 conference all this time. Houston is one of the top 5 producers of NFL talent in the country and produces MLB and NBA talent at a pretty constant clip. To say that UH in basketball, football and baseball is worse than KSU or ISU or that UH wouldn't quickly surpass those schools in a short amount of time if added to the B12 is laughable. Texas and OU can't get every top Houston area kid. There's enough to field several D1 schools. UH would compete at least as well as TCU and it would happen within 5 years.

Back to the SWC. Watered down rosters with rampant cheating.

 

[Son of Wasatch]

Apparently Red went on an anti-Charlie tirade on the radio yesterday, saying that Mack had left him a tremendously talented roster, that Charlie couldn't even hold onto a top-50 national player in Raulerson (LMAO), and other nonsense.

At this point, he's just a senile blowhard whose ego hasn't diminished with his mind. Just open your checkbook and shut your embarrassing mouth, Red.

When did this happen? I'm down here in San Antonio and I haven't heard anything about this? Is there a transcript of him, he has been pretty quiet lately as he is in pretty bad health.

UH has as much or more tradition and success as TCU. And Baylor, KSU and ISU are only bigger names because they've been in a power 5 conference all this time. Houston is one of the top 5 producers of NFL talent in the country and produces MLB and NBA talent at a pretty constant clip. To say that UH in basketball, football and baseball is worse than KSU or ISU or that UH wouldn't quickly surpass those schools in a short amount of time if added to the B12 is laughable. Texas and OU can't get every top Houston area kid. There's enough to field several D1 schools. UH would compete at least as well as TCU and it would happen within 5 years.

The problem isn't the product, the problem is name recognition. UH doesn't attract attention, nor does it put people in front of the TV, this goes for everyone who realistically out there. BYU and Nebraska being the exception. If the Big 12 could bring those two back in then it would go a long way in bringing the Big 12 back as the #2 conference in the country. Eventually Either we have to grow East or we have to tell WVU to find a new conference.

Right now the Big 12 is not a realistic option for any school in a P5 conference. It is the least stable conference of any. I'd call C-USA more stable as their membership isn't getting the big pay day that Big 12 schools are getting. As long as Texas is happy, the Big 12 is floating, if Texas leaves this conference is no longer P-5.

 

[TexExSpur]

SOW it was on a radio show.

 

[Longyac]

Right now the Big 12 is not a realistic option for any school in a P5 conference. It is the least stable conference of any. I'd call C-USA more stable as their membership isn't getting the big pay day that Big 12 schools are getting. As long as Texas is happy, the Big 12 is floating, if Texas leaves this conference is no longer P-5.

Baloney. GORs made the B12 stable. It takes a super majority to dissolve the B12.

Tell me which of these teams have better options available than the $33.2 mil before third tier that they'll get in the B12, starting next year with the CCG, so that they would vote to dissolve the conference; ISU, KSU, Baylor, TTech, OSU, and WVA. Then who is going to pay TX, OU, and KU over $40 mil? Does that number equal or exceed 8 to get the 8 or more votes needed to dissolve the B12?

The announcement of the ACC Network and the ACC GOR of thru 2036 greatly changed the landscape. The SEC's coveted expansion into the NC and VA media markets has been cut off for 20 years. Until media changes to paying for eyeballs delivered there is no reason for the SEC to look West. It already has the TX media market via A&M. With the SEC blocked in there is no reason for the B1G to continue to expand unless they can grab TCU and the DFW market.

The PAC is dead last in media revue thanks to horrible mismanagement by Larry Scott. Yes, the PAC is now in worse shape than the B12. Due to distances, merging with the B12 is pretty much the only option for the PAC. PAC's GOR expire in 2024 and B12's in 2025.

With all that, I'm no longer opposed to adding 2-4 teams to the east of Texas in large media markets. But no extending the GOR length and the B12 must keep the PAC hemmed in/cutoff for future realignment possibilities.

 

[topdecktiger]

Baloney. GORs made the B12 stable

He said least stable. All of the P5 conferences are stable, compared to the smaller leagues. Out of the P5, a reasonable argument can be made that the Big 12 is the least stable of the 5, due to lack of a network, a smaller media market, and a shorter GOR than the other leagues.

 

[littleton tiger]

topdeck, as usual, your post is logical and insightful. Thanks

 

[horn01]

U of H has had a decent program for about five minutes. Their average game attendance is less than Baylor's was in the bad years. They are far from the type of addition that would save this conference. Any talk of adding them is for political gain.
I would be absolutely shocked if Texas agrees to extend the GOR. If we don't, that's pretty much proof that the plan is to bail in 2024, and that makes all of this nothing more than a money grab. And why not? Might as well make the most of this.

 

[HornosaurusRex]

When did this happen? I'm down here in San Antonio and I haven't heard anything about this? Is there a transcript of him, he has been pretty quiet lately as he is in pretty bad health.

click on '7-22 AFTERNOON SHOW - RED McCOMBS' to listen to the 14:22 minute telephone interview with Red.
http://www.kesn1033.com/cowlishaw-mosley/

"Charlie may grow up and be a big coach. There are only five in the top five, and ten in the top ten. Charlie didn't make the cut, maybe someday he will." 5:45

"He's a wonderful man, I'd like to go fishing with him. I wouldnt necessarily put him in my top ten [coaches] though." 6:22

Red's a smart man with strong opinions, and I didnt find his comments to be too unreasonable in regards to Coach Strong, basically saying that he still needs to prove himself, and that there needs to be less staff turnover. Elsewhere he discussed Big12 expansion and that UofH should be the number one target and that the UT-A&M game should return to being an every year game.

Hook 'em

 

[HornosaurusRex]

I would be absolutely shocked if Texas agrees to extend the GOR. If we don't, that's pretty much proof that the plan is to bail in 2024, and that makes all of this nothing more than a money grab. And why not? Might as well make the most of this.

This is how I see it as well. It's a money grab and also to provide the conference with some staying power when the top 2-4 teams bail at the end of the GOR. It's still a win for the incoming teams as they will move up to the next level and I expect the conference will survive even if/when UT and okie leave for greener pastures.

Hook 'em

 

[cwillfromdatx]

click on '7-22 AFTERNOON SHOW - RED McCOMBS' to listen to the 14:22 minute telephone interview with Red.
http://www.kesn1033.com/cowlishaw-mosley/

"Charlie may grow up and be a big coach. There are only five in the top five, and ten in the top ten. Charlie didn't make the cut, maybe someday he will." 5:45

"He's a wonderful man, I'd like to go fishing with him. I wouldnt necessarily put him in my top ten [coaches] though." 6:22

Red's a smart man with strong opinions, and I didnt find his comments to be too unreasonable in regards to Coach Strong, basically saying that he still needs to prove himself, and that there needs to be less staff turnover. Elsewhere he discussed Big12 expansion and that UofH should be the number one target and that the UT-A&M game should return to being an every year game.

Hook 'em

I don't agree or disagree with Red comments. Everyone is entitled to their own. I know that UT has more options than anyone in the conference. The Big 12 can expand or not, doesn't matter. Just don't change the GOR. My dream conference at the end of the GOR would be UT, OU, ARKY, LSU, TT, OSU, AZ, ASU and pick whatever 4 schools you like to fill in. Central and mountain time zone.

 

[littleton tiger]

Okay my 4 would be
1. Notre Dame
2. TCU
3.Missouri
4Ole Miss
And I do totally agree with your first 8 choices. A conference made up of those 12 schools could dominate college football to the same degree the SWC does now.

 

[diadevic]

UH has as much or more tradition and success as TCU. And Baylor, KSU and ISU are only bigger names because they've been in a power 5 conference all this time. Houston is one of the top 5 producers of NFL talent in the country and produces MLB and NBA talent at a pretty constant clip. To say that UH in basketball, football and baseball is worse than KSU or ISU or that UH wouldn't quickly surpass those schools in a short amount of time if added to the B12 is laughable. Texas and OU can't get every top Houston area kid. There's enough to field several D1 schools. UH would compete at least as well as TCU and it would happen within 5 years.

If you want to boot Baylor, KSU, ISU or TCU in favor of UH, that's a different conversation. But adding UH to that group does nothing for the Big 12.

 

[Scholz]

Here's your braintrust.

Boren mentioned "academic standards" as one of the five core criteria the league will consider, along with competitiveness of athletic programs, fan base, access to media markets and overall reputation.

Laughable indeed, Boren, laughable indeed.

 

[TexExSpur]

 

[Longyac]

He said least stable. All of the P5 conferences are stable, compared to the smaller leagues. Out of the P5, a reasonable argument can be made that the Big 12 is the least stable of the 5, due to lack of a network, a smaller media market, and a shorter GOR than the other leagues.

Well, it is a two dog race with the PAC. The PAC GOR expires the year before the B12's do.

 

[DrinkToIt]

When did this happen? I'm down here in San Antonio and I haven't heard anything about this? Is there a transcript of him, he has been pretty quiet lately as he is in pretty bad health.





The problem isn't the product, the problem is name recognition. UH doesn't attract attention, nor does it put people in front of the TV, this goes for everyone who realistically out there. BYU and Nebraska being the exception. If the Big 12 could bring those two back in then it would go a long way in bringing the Big 12 back as the #2 conference in the country. Eventually Either we have to grow East or we have to tell WVU to find a new conference.

Right now the Big 12 is not a realistic option for any school in a P5 conference. It is the least stable conference of any. I'd call C-USA more stable as their membership isn't getting the big pay day that Big 12 schools are getting. As long as Texas is happy, the Big 12 is floating, if Texas leaves this conference is no longer P-5.

There was a time when FSU wasnt a name school either. Or Miami for that matter. Things change. What is TCU's name recognition. What is Baylors? What is KSUs? What is Iowa States?

You cant look at things as they are today. You have to look at the future. UH is in one of the most fertile recruiting grounds in the entire nation, for pretty much ALL sports. UH cant attract top recruits on a consistent basis largely because of the conference they are in. Why do players go to Baylor? Because of the Big 12. The same holds true for KSU and ISU. Hell in football thats why they go to Kansas. Kansas sucks. But Kansas also isnt in the 4th largest city in the country (will the 3rd largest in the next 10-15 years.)

Y'all lack vision that think UH is a bad move, and the argument that its the SWC, is just weak. This isnt 1992. If the B12 can take TCU, who can become one of the best schools in the conference in both football and baseball in 5 years, to say that UH cant or wont in 5 years, is again laughable. Think forward, not backwards. UH just beat FSU, and two years ago they sucked. They just gave Herman more money. If he stays, he probably would if UH goes to the B12, and if UH has an equally impressive season this year, then there is no reason to say they wouldnt be a good fit.

I dont care what their current attendance numbers are. See where they are in 5 years. Unless there is a better option, and no Cincinatti or Memphis arent better options, then UH should be added.

 

[Son of Wasatch]

click on '7-22 AFTERNOON SHOW - RED McCOMBS' to listen to the 14:22 minute telephone interview with Red.
http://www.kesn1033.com/cowlishaw-mosley/

"Charlie may grow up and be a big coach. There are only five in the top five, and ten in the top ten. Charlie didn't make the cut, maybe someday he will." 5:45

"He's a wonderful man, I'd like to go fishing with him. I wouldnt necessarily put him in my top ten [coaches] though." 6:22

Red's a smart man with strong opinions, and I didnt find his comments to be too unreasonable in regards to Coach Strong, basically saying that he still needs to prove himself, and that there needs to be less staff turnover. Elsewhere he discussed Big12 expansion and that UofH should be the number one target and that the UT-A&M game should return to being an every year game.

Hook 'em

I'm at work and I can't click on the link but if what you posted were his quotes. I'd call it pretty spot on. I love Charlie as a recruiter, but damn I haven't seen anything from him as a game day coach that says he is going to succeed. Especially when it comes to halftime adjustments. I think we scored like 4 touchdowns in the third quarter all year.

View embedded media

That made me smile.

 

[topdecktiger]

UH cant attract top recruits on a consistent basis largely because of the conference they are in

Yet TCU has done it for the last 15 years.

 

[HornsRuleU]

Is UH at the same academic level as Texas? No way. But no other Big 12 school is in the same stratosphere. UH is more on the level with KSU and TTU. Those schools turn down less than 1% of applicants. Degree mills.

Can UH fill the stands? No, but they out-pull N. Illinois, SMU, and Colorado State. And little Baylor is still in the Big 12, the last time I checked.

The University of Houston does have some advantages.
1. TV market of Houston, which looks toward the SEC now. Having UH in the Big 12 can help bring TV viewers, and that will help the Big 12 with recruiting.

2. Speaking of that, with UH in the Big 12, recruits in the Houston area could sign with any Big 12 school, and expect to play vs. UH. If they sign with Texas, they should be able to play at Cougar High every other season, if the divisions are done right.

3. Closer away games, especially for Texas. Tighter geography and nearby rivals make sense to fans. You think TCU fans loved watching annual games vs. Mountain West?

There's also their ability to drop opposition to UT-Houston, although I don't know how much sway they have over what the UT System does there.

 

[westx]

U of H has had a decent program for about five minutes. Their average game attendance is less than Baylor's was in the bad years. They are far from the type of addition that would save this conference. Any talk of adding them is for political gain.
I would be absolutely shocked if Texas agrees to extend the GOR. If we don't, that's pretty much proof that the plan is to bail in 2024, and that makes all of this nothing more than a money grab. And why not? Might as well make the most of this.

Just watching some of the DNC and heard Senator Elizabeth Warren say "I graduated from a commuter college in Texas that cost $50/semester". The college in question is U of H. Pretty funny.

BTW, I have no problem with a quality education at the University of Houston. I am mainly referencing the possibility of a "commuter college" being part of an athletic power conference.

 

[Son of Wasatch]

My belief is that if Texas leaves the Big 12 will stack up a bunch of smaller Texas schools in different markets to make up for losing the one school that brings in every Texas market.

BTW why UofH? Why not Rice. They bring academic excellence and Stanford has proven that even a smart school can be competitive with the right coach.