Why the Texas defense is still struggling

[FlourBluffHorn]

Attrition, holes in recruiting classes, injuries, and lack of development have all played a role.

Three years into the Tom Herman era in Austin, the Texas Longhorns program is seemingly at a crossroads with fan confidence cratering following two losses in the last three games and the narrow victory over the Kansas Jayhawks.
There are now calls for Herman’s job or for changes on the coaching staff during the offseason, with most of the ire currently directed at defensive coordinator Todd Orlando, whose group ranks in the 110s nationally in total defense.

So how did Orlando get to a point where his third season features a defense with so many flaws?

The story starts with the downfall of Charlie Strong and the ripple effects caused by the 2016 and 2017 recruiting classes.

The 2016 group closed with a flurry, eventually landing at No. 7 nationally due to numerous National Signing Day additions, including No. 1 safety Brandon Jones, No. 5 outside linebacker Jeffrey McCulloch, and a flip by No. 7 outside linebacker Erick Fowler from LSU to Texas.

Then, during the summer, when scandal gripped Baylor and head coach Art Briles was forced out, the Horns inked No. 5 wide receiver Devin Duvernay and No. 2 offensive guard Patrick Hudson, as well as Duvernay’s twin brother Donovan and JP Urquidez.

The issues started with the coaching change from Strong to Herman — attempts to instill a new culture often necessarily leads to transfers. For Strong, it The Purge of 2014 that resulted in double-digit dismissals from the program...


https://www.burntorangenation.com/2...Ci5USROMtN4hTEfXDlr6N8faHWguDtDP35lw1zaK8qEwY

 

[BringBackRoyal]

Not a commentary on this particular post of his, but: Wescott Eberts is a massive c*nt.

 

[clob94]

Attrition, holes in recruiting classes, injuries, and lack of development have all played a role.

Three years into the Tom Herman era in Austin, the Texas Longhorns program is seemingly at a crossroads with fan confidence cratering following two losses in the last three games and the narrow victory over the Kansas Jayhawks.
There are now calls for Herman’s job or for changes on the coaching staff during the offseason, with most of the ire currently directed at defensive coordinator Todd Orlando, whose group ranks in the 110s nationally in total defense.

So how did Orlando get to a point where his third season features a defense with so many flaws?

The story starts with the downfall of Charlie Strong and the ripple effects caused by the 2016 and 2017 recruiting classes.

The 2016 group closed with a flurry, eventually landing at No. 7 nationally due to numerous National Signing Day additions, including No. 1 safety Brandon Jones, No. 5 outside linebacker Jeffrey McCulloch, and a flip by No. 7 outside linebacker Erick Fowler from LSU to Texas.

Then, during the summer, when scandal gripped Baylor and head coach Art Briles was forced out, the Horns inked No. 5 wide receiver Devin Duvernay and No. 2 offensive guard Patrick Hudson, as well as Duvernay’s twin brother Donovan and JP Urquidez.

The issues started with the coaching change from Strong to Herman — attempts to instill a new culture often necessarily leads to transfers. For Strong, it The Purge of 2014 that resulted in double-digit dismissals from the program...


https://www.burntorangenation.com/2...Ci5USROMtN4hTEfXDlr6N8faHWguDtDP35lw1zaK8qEwY

Anybody else know when FB is writing his own material and when he copies and pastes?

 

[Belldozer1]

Anybody else know when FB is writing his own material and when he copies and pastes?

When he doesn’t mention getting drunk with Stranger?

 

[horn wild]

Yea!
If there is an excuse for Herman then he copied.
Otherwise he’s running over him with a Mack Truck.

 

[dj701919]

I could easily argue that Charlie Strong's 3 years had more obstacles than Herman's had.

 

[MiccoMacey]

In all honesty, if you lose as many starters off one unit as Texas has, you HAVE to expect some level of drop off. Heck, missing just one or two starters for a significant time can have some effect on the defense. You guys lost a ton.

If this were OU, and we lost as many as you guys did, we’d have the same issues.

Not all the issues are blamed on the injuries. Lack of tackling skills isn’t because of injuries, nor is it because they missed a few “Toughness Tuesdays” (what a load of crap). But missed assignments, lining up out of alignments, not understanding where you should be or whom to cover...even veteran starters make mistakes. Imagine the third team guy, as a freshman, still learning the ropes. That’s where Texas is.

Just my .02

 

[clob94]

Yea!
If there is an excuse for Herman then he copied.
Otherwise he’s running over him with a Mack Truck.

Wait---- what?

 

[UTGrad87]

I dont know if this is relevant or not . . . But I always get worried when recruiting emphasis is on skill positions and not on the power positions . . . Line and linebackers.

From my vantage point Herman is laser focused on the skill guys but not so much on the power guys.

The game is won and lost within 5 yards of the LOS. Not sure Tommy gets that and that worries me. Why is our DL so bad? No excuse for that IMHO.

 

[q1w2e3]

I dont know if this is relevant or not . . . But I always get worried when recruiting emphasis is on skill positions and not on the power positions . . . Line and linebackers.

From my vantage point Herman is laser focused on the skill guys but not so much on the power guys.

The game is won and lost within 5 yards of the LOS. Not sure Tommy gets that and that worries me. Why is our DL so bad? No excuse for that IMHO.

Well, Herman HAS been signing 'power' guys in HIS classes. However, he didn't inherit much to work with:

Herman's classes:

2018: 3 LB, 4 DL, 5 OL
2019: 5 LB, 4 DL, 5 OL

However, all of Herman's guys are only true sophomores, redshirt frehsmen, and true freshmen. Especially for "power guys" it takes time to develop, have to be patient.

Here is what Texas has left from Charlie Strong classes which is the seniors, juniors, and redshirt sophomores:

2015 class: zero

2016 class: Defense: one LB- McCulloch starter who is INJURED; 3 DL: Roach, Wilbon, Christmas: That's one starter, a second stringer at best, and a third stringer.
Offense: 4 OL: only one is a first stringer- Shackelford. The other three are career backups.

2017 class: Defense: 3 total: Graham, Bimage, Chislolm. That's one starter and two backups
Offense: 2 OL: Cosmi and Kerstetter

That is jack-ship for talent and depth for the upper class of a football team

 

[UTGrad87]

I'd prolly be much happier

Well, Herman HAS been signing 'power' guys in HIS classes. However, he didn't inherit much to work with:

Herman's classes:

2018: 3 LB, 4 DL, 5 OL
2019: 5 LB, 4 DL, 5 OL

However, all of Herman's guys are only true sophomores, redshirt frehsmen, and true freshmen. Especially for "power guys" it takes time to develop, have to be patient.

Here is what Texas has left from Charlie Strong classes which is the seniors, juniors, and redshirt sophomores:

2015 class: zero

2016 class: Defense: one LB- McCulloch starter who is INJURED; 3 DL: Roach, Wilbon, Christmas: That's one starter, a second stringer at best, and a third stringer.
Offense: 4 OL: only one is a first stringer- Shackelford. The other three are career backups.

2017 class: Defense: 3 total: Graham, Bimage, Chislolm. That's one starter and two backups
Offense: 2 OL: Cosmi and Kerstetter

That is jack-ship for talent and depth for the upper class of a football team

I'd prolly be much happier if some of those TH DL's had 5 stars next to their names.

 

[q1w2e3]

I could easily argue that Charlie Strong's 3 years had more obstacles than Herman's had.

Maybe, maybe not, but Herman's teams since day one have been light-years ahead of Strong's teams every season. On top of clearly putting together a better product on the field Herman's program development and recruiting is also better.

 

[cwillfromdatx]

Maybe, maybe not, but Herman's teams since day one have been light-years ahead of Strong's teams every season. On top of clearly putting together a better product on the field Herman's program development and recruiting is also better.

Light years ahead of strong? Hmmm, Herman came in with some talent across the board. Strong came in and wipe out 10 or so kids at the very beginning. Herman have had 3 years to get kids in and he has produce top 10 classes in recruiting. Why hasn't that showed up in the W department? It's his defensive scheme. He want to protect against the pass so he put down a 3-3-5. So having 3 DL's guys going against 5 OL's, TE or even a RB will not stop a QB at all. You need to apply pressure and we are not doing that. Change your D scheme to a 4-2-5 with 2 Tackles and 2 DE's. No pressure and we will lose.

 

[dj701919]

Maybe, maybe not, but Herman's teams since day one have been light-years ahead of Strong's teams every season. On top of clearly putting together a better product on the field Herman's program development and recruiting is also better.

In Charlie Strong's 1st season, he lost his only offensive lineman and QB to career ending injuries during week 1 and had to play with Tyrone Swoopes and an oline greener than a John Deere tractor.

There is absolutely zero comparison between what Charlie Strong left Tom Herman and the dumpster fire that Mack left Strong.

 

[q1w2e3]

In Charlie Strong's 1st season, he lost his only offensive lineman and QB to career ending injuries during week 1 and had to play with Tyrone Swoopes and an oline greener than a John Deere tractor.

There is absolutely zero comparison between what Charlie Strong left Tom Herman and the dumpster fire that Mack left Strong.

Okay even if I give you that, Charlie continued to implode year after year. He never addressed the QB problem either when he had the chance. In his third year he was still beating his own records for blow out losses.

 

[q1w2e3]

Light years ahead of strong? Hmmm, Herman came in with some talent across the board. Strong came in and wipe out 10 or so kids at the very beginning. Herman have had 3 years to get kids in and he has produce top 10 classes in recruiting. Why hasn't that showed up in the W department? It's his defensive scheme. He want to protect against the pass so he put down a 3-3-5. So having 3 DL's guys going against 5 OL's, TE or even a RB will not stop a QB at all. You need to apply pressure and we are not doing that. Change your D scheme to a 4-2-5 with 2 Tackles and 2 DE's. No pressure and we will lose.

Yes, light-years ahead of Strong. I know fanatics like us are insufferable after losses and lose objectivity. But Strong oversaw the worst stretch of football in UT history. I have to question the sincerity of someone who claims Strong's tenure is even close to Herman's.

And no, Herman did not have "talent across the board" when he got here. He had one of the, if not the, worst OL's and offenses I've ever seen. He certainly didn't have any abundance of talent more than Strong did when he came on.

Strong had three consecutive seasons without a winning record (6-7, 6-6, 6-6) two of which didn't even qualify for a bowl game. Not only could he not win, he couldn't even put a competitive product on the field. His teams routinely were BLOWN OUT of the stadium: In his three seasons Strong was blown out by 14 or more points ELEVEN times:

2014: Five losses by 14 or more points including losses by:
- 38 points
-34 points
-24 points
-23 points (Texas scored zero points)
-21 ponts

2015: Four losses by 14 points or more including:
-43 points (50-7 @TCU)
-35 points (offense scored 3 total)
-24 points (Texas scored zero points)
-18

2016: Two more blowouts:
-22 points
-18 points

In contrast, Herman has had one single loss by 14 or more. It was by 17 at TCU in 2017. In his first season he had a winning record and won a bowl game in dominant fashion over an SEC team.

Second year of Herman Texas won 10 games for the first time since 2009 and finished ranked inside the top ten for the first time since 2009.

There is no comparison.

 

[UTGrad87]

Yes, light-years ahead of Strong. I know fanatics like us are insufferable after losses and lose objectivity. But Strong oversaw the worst stretch of football in UT history. I have to question the sincerity of someone who claims Strong's tenure is even close to Herman's.

And no, Herman did not have "talent across the board" when he got here. He had one of the, if not the, worst OL's and offenses I've ever seen. He certainly didn't have any abundance of talent more than Strong did when he came on.

Strong had three consecutive seasons without a winning record (6-7, 6-6, 6-6) two of which didn't even qualify for a bowl game. Not only could he not win, he couldn't even put a competitive product on the field. His teams routinely were BLOWN OUT of the stadium: In his three seasons Strong was blown out by 14 or more points ELEVEN times:

2014: Five losses by 14 or more points including losses by:
- 38 points
-34 points
-24 points
-23 points (Texas scored zero points)
-21 ponts

2015: Four losses by 14 points or more including:
-43 points (50-7 @TCU)
-35 points (offense scored 3 total)
-24 points (Texas scored zero points)
-18

2016: Two more blowouts:
-22 points
-18 points

In contrast, Herman has had one single loss by 14 or more. It was by 17 at TCU in 2017. In his first season he had a winning record and won a bowl game in dominant fashion over an SEC team.

Second year of Herman Texas won 10 games for the first time since 2009 and finished ranked inside the top ten for the first time since 2009.

There is no comparison.

Q, did you stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night . . . that analysis is impressive! On another note . . . I'm gonna go watch my wife's Cards lose to the 49ers tomorrow night at Twin Peaks. Its Halloween, those gals will be almost nekkid! Yes I know, I'm a dirty old man.

 

[dj701919]

Yes, light-years ahead of Strong. I know fanatics like us are insufferable after losses and lose objectivity. But Strong oversaw the worst stretch of football in UT history. I have to question the sincerity of someone who claims Strong's tenure is even close to Herman's.

And no, Herman did not have "talent across the board" when he got here. He had one of the, if not the, worst OL's and offenses I've ever seen. He certainly didn't have any abundance of talent more than Strong did when he came on.

Strong had three consecutive seasons without a winning record (6-7, 6-6, 6-6) two of which didn't even qualify for a bowl game. Not only could he not win, he couldn't even put a competitive product on the field. His teams routinely were BLOWN OUT of the stadium: In his three seasons Strong was blown out by 14 or more points ELEVEN times:

2014: Five losses by 14 or more points including losses by:
- 38 points
-34 points
-24 points
-23 points (Texas scored zero points)
-21 ponts

2015: Four losses by 14 points or more including:
-43 points (50-7 @TCU)
-35 points (offense scored 3 total)
-24 points (Texas scored zero points)
-18

2016: Two more blowouts:
-22 points
-18 points

In contrast, Herman has had one single loss by 14 or more. It was by 17 at TCU in 2017. In his first season he had a winning record and won a bowl game in dominant fashion over an SEC team.

Second year of Herman Texas won 10 games for the first time since 2009 and finished ranked inside the top ten for the first time since 2009.

There is no comparison.

I agree, Herman's tenure is signifcantly better than Strong's. Due in some portion to the fact that Herman inherited a roster significantly better than Strong. A roster with guys like:

Shackleford
C. Johnson
Buechle
Elhinger
D Duvernay
B Jones
D Elliot
Devante Davis
Connor Williams
Patrick Vahe
C Omenihu
Roach
A Wheeler
LJ Humphries
B Jones
Jefferson
H Hill
Locke
Dickson

 

[q1w2e3]

I agree, Herman's tenure is signifcantly better than Strong's. Due in some portion to the fact that Herman inherited a roster significantly better than Strong. A roster with guys like:

Shackleford
C. Johnson
Buechle
Elhinger
D Duvernay
B Jones
D Elliot
Devante Davis
Connor Williams
Patrick Vahe
C Omenihu
Roach
A Wheeler
LJ Humphries
B Jones
Jefferson
H Hill
Locke
Dickson

“Significantly better roster“ is quite a claim. Those 19 names don’t do much for your argument. Here is a list of what Strong got:

- a #2 AND #4 class in the nation from Mack Brown
- Six 5* players

every player listed below is at least as relevant as someone from your list:

-Malcom Brown: 5*; NFL (1st round draft pick)
-Jordan Hicks: 5*; NFL (3rd round)
-D’onte Foreman: NFL (3rd round)
-Hassan Ridgeway: NFL (4th round)
-Mykkele Thompson: NFL (5th round)
-Quandre Diggs: NFL (6th round)
-Adrian Colbert: NFL (7th round)
-Geoff Swaim: NFL (7th round)
-Poona Ford: NFL
-Malcolm Brown (RB): 5*; NFL
-Marcus Johnson: NFL
-Jonathan Gray: 5*
-Jaxon Shipley (3rd most Rec.in UT history)
-Daje Johnson
-Cedric Reed
-Peter Jinkins ( 1st team All Conference LB)
-John Harris
-Jerrod Heard
-Tyrone Swoopes
-David Ash
-Duke Thomas
-Steve Edmond: 5*
-Andrew Beck: NFL
-Darius James: 5*
-Dominic Espinosa
-Sedrick Flowers
-Desmond Harrison
-Camrhon Hughes
-Kent Perkins
-Kennedy Estelle
-Desmond Jackson

 

[dj701919]

“Significantly better roster“ is quite a claim. Those 19 names don’t do much for your argument. Here is a list of what Strong got:

- a #2 AND #4 class in the nation from Mack Brown
- Six 5* players

every player listed below is at least as relevant as someone from your list.

-Malcom Brown: 5*; NFL (1st round draft pick)
-Jordan Hicks: 5*; NFL (3rd round)
-D’onte Foreman: NFL (3rd round)
-Hassan Ridgeway: NFL (4th round)
-Mykkele Thompson: NFL (5th round)
-Quandre Diggs: NFL (6th round)
-Adrian Colbert: NFL (7th round)
-Geoff Swaim: NFL (7th round)
-Poona Ford: NFL
-Malcolm Brown (RB): 5*; NFL
-Marcus Johnson: NFL
-Jonathan Gray: 5*
-Jaxon Shipley (3rd most Rec.in UT history)
-Daje Johnson
-Cedric Reed
-Peter Jinkins ( 1st team All Conference LB)
-John Harris
-Jerrod Heard
-Tyrone Swoopes
-David Ash
-Duke Thomas
-Steve Edmond: 5*
-Andrew Beck: NFL
-Darius James: 5*
-Dominic Espinosa
-Sedrick Flowers
-Desmond Harrison
-Camrhon Hughes
-Kent Perkins
-Kennedy Estelle
-Desmond Jackson

You give me the roster Herman inherited and I'll given you those guys and I'll beat you 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. The roster I have has at least 4 d-linemen that can out run your 5* LB. If Steve Edmund was a 5* recruit, that's just proof that rankings are horriblly flawed.

 

[q1w2e3]

You give me the roster Herman inherited and I'll given you those guys and I'll beat you 6 days a week and twice on Sunday. The roster I have has at least 4 d-linemen that can out run your 5* LB. If Steve Edmund was a 5* recruit, that's just proof that rankings are horriblly flawed.

You just provided zero actual reasoning for your claim. Plus the two DL on your list, one of which is Roach LOL, pale in comparison to Strongs list. And...Steve Edmond would be a starting Linebacker for Texas right now and last season would have started over Wheeler.

 

[dj701919]

You just provided zero actual reasoning for your claim. Plus the two DL on your list, one of which is Roach LOL, pale in comparison to Strongs list. And...Steve Edmond would be a starting Linebacker for Texas right now and last season would have started over Wheeler.

Ok

Offense

LT - Connor Williams, AA 2nd Round 3 yr starter
LG - Patrick Vahe, 4 yr starter
C - Shackleford, 4 yr starter
RG - Elijah Rodriguez
RT - Denzek Okafor
QB - Sam Elhinger, 3 yr starter
RB - Kyle Porter
XWR - Collin Johnson NFL
HWR - LJ Humphries NFL
ZWR - Devin Duvernay NFL
YTE - Andrew Beck NFL


Defense

DE - Roach NFL
DT - Ford NFL
DE - Omenihu NFL
LB - Nashon Hughes
LB - Jefferson NFL
LB - McCullough
NB - PJ Locke
CB - Holton Hill NFL
CB - Davante Davis
S - Deshon Elliott AA NFL
S- Brandon Jones NFL

Now explain to me how an offense run by Tyronne Swoopes, without a single o-lineman that could beat out True Freshmen Connor Williams or Patrick Vahe, without a single NFL caliber WR, and a secondary that includes Dylan Haines and Duke Thomas is going to beat that.

Steve Edmond couldn't run out of sight in a week and played like his shoes were made of concrete. There is no way he would fit in a Todd Orlando run defense.

 

[Belldozer1]

Okay even if I give you that, Charlie continued to implode year after year. He never addressed the QB problem either when he had the chance. In his third year he was still beating his own records for blow out losses.

IIRC didn't Strong change offenses 3 different times during his time at Texas. Am I wrong on that?

 

[q1w2e3]

Ok

Offense

LT - Connor Williams, AA 2nd Round 3 yr starter
LG - Patrick Vahe, 4 yr starter
C - Shackleford, 4 yr starter
RG - Elijah Rodriguez
RT - Denzek Okafor
QB - Sam Elhinger, 3 yr starter
RB - Kyle Porter
XWR - Collin Johnson NFL
HWR - LJ Humphries NFL
ZWR - Devin Duvernay NFL
YTE - Andrew Beck NFL


Defense

DE - Roach NFL
DT - Ford NFL
DE - Omenihu NFL
LB - Nashon Hughes
LB - Jefferson NFL
LB - McCullough
NB - PJ Locke
CB - Holton Hill NFL
CB - Davante Davis
S - Deshon Elliott AA NFL
S- Brandon Jones NFL

Now explain to me how an offense run by Tyronne Swoopes, without a single o-lineman that could beat out True Freshmen Connor Williams or Patrick Vahe, without a single NFL caliber WR, and a secondary that includes Dylan Haines and Duke Thomas is going to beat that.

Steve Edmond couldn't run out of sight in a week and played like his shoes were made of concrete. There is no way he would fit in a Todd Orlando run defense.

It looks like the line-up you posted is a mix and match of players spanning three different years, not the coaches inaugural season, and included players that never stepped on the field together at the same time. So, I'll do the same.

BTW, Connor Williams shouldn't be listed as a Herman player. He missed almost the entire 2017 season to injury and then left early for the NFL. The actual LT for 2017 was Tristan freaking Nicholson.

TE Beck also missed the entire 2017 to injury and Texas had to play Garret Gray and true frosh Brewer at TE.

Also, Sophomore Buchele was the QB when Herman showed up, Elhlinger was forced into action due to injury and he was gawd awful as a true frosh.

On top of that, even the true freshman version of Connor Williams would have been the best player on the 2017 OL.

Also, you mention Swoopes as your Charlie QB but it was Jerrod Heard and Buchele that were the better QB's. Plus, Charlie and Shawn Watson sucked at offense and especially dual threat QBs.

Also, you claimed no NFL talent at WR. I guess you forgot about Marcus Johnson? Also, Jaxson Shipley is the third leading WR in UT history, and Daje Johnson is obviously an NFL talent despite the off-field issues.

Also, you assumed Roach is an NFL player which is highly questionable.

Again, Edmond would start over Wheeler. Edmond's senior year blew Wheeler's out of the water. It's not really even close.

QB: Jerrod Heard, Buchele, Swoopes
RB: Foreman, Brown, Gray, Warren >>> Porter
WR; Marcus Johnson, Daje Johnson, Jaxon Shipley
TE: Geoff Swaim, Andrew Beck, Caleb Bluiett
LT: Connor Williams
LG: Sedrick Flowers
C: Shack
RG: Kent Perkins
RT: Kennedy Estelle

DL: Brown, Ridgeway, Jackson, Reed, Poona >> Roach, Omenihu, Poona
LB: Malik Jefferson, Jordan Hicks, Peter Jenkins, Edwin Freeman>>> Jefferson, Hughes, McCullogh
DB: M. Thompson, Diggs, Colbert, Jason Hall, Duke Thomas