OT: Orlando police

[TX1972]

I'm puzzled. Yesterday there was a brief mention that an off duty officer working security exchanged gunfire with the terrorist before he entered the club. I see no mention of this today. I surmise that he was neither wounded nor killed. Thus there should have been an near instant call for help. Then the SWAT team spent 3 hours outside while the terrorist killed and wounded 100 people? Were they waiting for him to run out of ammo or get tired? They dress like soldiers, they have guns like soldiers, they shoot dogs like nobody's business, but they take 3 hours to decide to storm the club?

 

[FlourBluffHorn]

I'm puzzled. Yesterday there was a brief mention that an off duty officer working security exchanged gunfire with the terrorist before he entered the club. I see no mention of this today. I surmise that he was neither wounded nor killed. Thus there should have been an near instant call for help. Then the SWAT team spent 3 hours outside while the terrorist killed and wounded 100 people? Were they waiting for him to run out of ammo or get tired? They dress like soldiers, they have guns like soldiers, they shoot dogs like nobody's business, but they take 3 hours to decide to storm the club?

Maybe someone brought some fresh donuts and coffee..or maybe a dog run past them..lots of explanations Tex..


Hook'em

 

[TX1972]

I seem to be the only one puzzled by this.

 

[outhereincali]

I seem to be the only one puzzled by this.

I think that maybe they weren't sure they could go in there and kill/capture the shooter and not harm innocent people.

 

[clob94]

I see where you're coming from but you also have to realize a few things.

First, this isn't like you see in the movies. When military special operations forces do a breach, someone has provided them with intel. Nowadays much if that is in real time. They have a good idea about what's going on in that house/building etc, so they pretty much know what they are walking into. It's not ALWAYS the case, but those guys like to know as much as possible. Orlando PD suffered from two disadvantages. 1. They didn't have enough intel. They didn't know exactly how many shooters were inside. They also didn't know how many friendlies were inside. With their bullets flying and his bullets flying this could have made the situation worse. Plus, what if there are multiple shooters? Now you've got patrons AND cops getting wacked.
2. As good as Orlando SWAT may be, they aren't a tier 1 group of operators. Those guys are sick. There's a reason they get to do what they do. Sooooo you're thinking "hell in 3 hours they could have had military specialists there" and yes, McDill AFB is right down the road in Tampa and Eglin is a little further away, BUT military can't operate on American soil without violating a sh!t ton of laws. FBI has an HRT in many major cities (hostage rescue team) but again, without knowledge of what's going on inside, you can have serious problems just kicking in the doors and blazing away.

I do remember hearing there was an off duty cop working the door but haven't heard anything after that. Another thing, I haven't heard yet if the guy was wearing a vest or if he had strike plates or anything inside the vest. Maybe the cop did shoot him and the vest caught the round. The guy was an armed guard at a federal court house. Maybe he had access to a vest.

 

[TX1972]

I still can't understand a 3 hour wait, while the guy shot 100/130 people inside. What were they waiting for? Are they here to "protect and serve" or shoot dogs?

 

[jsto60]

I could be wrong, but along with those initial reports of the security guard shoot out.

I also heard that they thought he had a 'device' of some sort. Hostages and guns are bad enough. But you don't storm in if you believe there is a bomb.


Thing that puzzles me most, is how a group of 10 people don't charge these gunmen. Like the brave people on the flight that took out terrorists on 911 and stopped them from their plot to hurt thousands more.
You never know until you are in the situation. But I hope I'd be inclined to attack instead of sit there and be picked off at a crazy person's whim. I'd go down with a fight, not without one.
In this case, maybe a few did. But maybe we should start teaching everyone to make a semi-coordinated charge in situations like this.

 

[clob94]

I'm not stereotyping anybody, not at all, but the MAJORITY of gay friends that I have aren't very aggressive people. Now I'm not saying there's no aggressive gay men out there, but I think we could all agree most members of that community are fairly gentle souls.

 

[TX1972]

I'm not stereotyping anybody, not at all, but the MAJORITY of gay friends that I have aren't very aggressive people. Now I'm not saying

Agreed. Is the Orlando SWAT team gay too?

 

[jsto60]

I'm not stereotyping anybody, not at all, but the MAJORITY of gay friends that I have aren't very aggressive people. Now I'm not saying

I'm not touching that one.

Just saying, be it in a night club....and movie theater.....an airplane......a school. This stuff is becoming more frequent. We taught kids back in the day to 'duck and cover' for A-bombs......maybe its time we start talking as a society about how we should handle these attacks. If everyone in a room charges one person.....that person is going down.

 

[ekal48]

I agree, that three hour deal needs some more explanation.

I know you never know what you will do until you are faced with something like that, but I agree with Jsto60, that guy can't face every direction at the same time. It seems like a few people could bull rush the mf and get him on the ground and take the weapon. True some might get killed, but better being killed that way than just sitting there waiting your turn.

But, like I said it's easy to sit at home in front of a computer and think about what you could have done. That's different than being there.

 

[clob94]

Fight or flight. Some people instinctively run away, some run to confront. It's tough to know who you are until the sh!t hits the fan. Hell even the "fight" guys can reach a breaking point. I've heard stories about some of the meanest, toughest, hardest men who fought tooth and nail for years with bullets zipping past them, sh!t blowing up around them, blood and guts soaking the ground-- bad asses-- that just one day, reached their breaking point.

 

[LongfellowDrew]

I could be wrong, but along with those initial reports of the security guard shoot out.

I also heard that they thought he had a 'device' of some sort. Hostages and guns are bad enough. But you don't storm in if you believe there is a bomb.


Thing that puzzles me most, is how a group of 10 people don't charge these gunmen. Like the brave people on the flight that took out terrorists on 911 and stopped them from their plot to hurt thousands more.
You never know until you are in the situation. But I hope I'd be inclined to attack instead of sit there and be picked off at a crazy person's whim. I'd go down with a fight, not without one.
In this case, maybe a few did. But maybe we should start teaching everyone to make a semi-coordinated charge in situations like this.

People on the plane have no way of escaping there's no exit door that anyone wants to go out. People in a club were probably looking for an exit first. We'll never know how we would react in a situation like this it's not like we go through a "tornado/fire" type drill for these things. We may need to start though!

 

[clob94]

BBC just reported that this a$$hat tried to buy military grade strike plates from a gun shop in his home town. Said he came in there wearing his GS4 security uniform and the owner of the shop saw his conceal and carry license and STILL ran a back ground check on him. His ex wife hadn't filed the restraining order properly (or something to that effect) so it did not show up on the back ground check.

Sooooo, sounds like a legal system breakdown. If the restraining order was in place, he doesn't get those weapons. So whomever fvcked that up has some blame on them. And now they are saying he pledged his allegiance to ISIS as well as AL Queda which makes no sense. They hate each other.

Aaaaaand they said he'd been casing Disneyland. Holy sh!t, that could have been really really bad.

 

[clob94]

People on the plane have no way of escaping there's no exit door that anyone wants to go out. People in a club were probably looking for an exit first. We'll never know how we would react in a situation like this it's not like we go through a "tornado/fire" type drill for this things. We may need to start though!

Does your office do the "active shooter" drill? Anyone?

 

[jsto60]

it's not like we go through a "tornado/fire" type drill for this things. We may need to start though!

And that's what I am saying.

I don't know if you start say in High school with teens. And do it in the work place. After a while, people would understand concepts of fleeing to the right areas and/or hiding in good places as someone enters a room and collectively jumping someone, etc.

Eventually the shooters would come up with new tactics.....at the end of the day a crazy person with weapons can do harm..........but a group of people can limit that harm.

 

[diadevic]

I'm not stereotyping anybody, not at all, but the MAJORITY of gay friends that I have aren't very aggressive people. Now I'm not saying there's no aggressive gay men out there, but I think we could all agree most members of that community are fairly gentle souls.

PLEASE tweet this to Chris Mathews.

 

[LongfellowDrew]

Does your office do the "active shooter" drill? Anyone?

No just your typical fire drill. I wish they would though but I'm sure the companies think that having the cops downstairs and badge access is secure enough.

 

[LongfellowDrew]

If you ever have a chance to watch the Paris attack this will show you the realization of being around gun fire in a typical everyday setting. The people in the restaurant did what I think many of us would do. Head toward an exit or a hiding place! Now in good Ole America you may get lucky and have someone carrying a concealed gun in a restaurant but more than likely not in a club.

 

[clob94]

The ones I've seen are pretty lame. They give a big speech about not trying to be a hero, get out of the building, barricade the door, stay low, quiet etc. They need to ramp that sh!t up and actually get people adrenal gland pumping. Problem is some old dude would probably have a heart attack and die during the training and then you'd be labeled as "no better than the terrorists".

 

[bubba2023]

I understand the not being a hero in a stick up situation. There the intent may not be to kill, it may just be to get your wallet, which is certainly not risking your life over. A guy brings a gun into an office I would think intent to kill is very much established in which case a more aggressive approach would be beneficial. That's my completely uninformed opinion though.

 

[oldschoolcat]

On the Disney front....took the wife and kids there for Spring Break. Spent one evening at the Disney Springs area, that they mentioned in the news reports as being a target. Let's just say I got a real bad vibe at that place. Way too many people who looked out of place, and weren't "Disneying"......if you know what I'm getting at.

Totally anecdotal, and probably worth nothing, but I dragged everyone out of the Lego and Disney stores after watching a couple of guys fiddling with bags out front. Just didn't look right. Dropping them off, and other guys picking them up and such. (yes, they were males, 20-30 years old, olive complexion, etc....)

Again....probably nothing, but I got totally creeped out by it. The rest of the parks were fine....

 

[FlourBluffHorn]

Do like the Russians, just gas everyone..LOL. that was a bad idea with Nerve gas



Hook'em

 

[oldhorn2]

Ok....Clob...this one you dont have right. My son is the DPS instructor that goes all over the country to instruct police departments about the crime scene. After the shooting at Virginia tech...everything changed.. Before that, the Swat teams would cordon off the area and then wait for a signal to enter the building. What is being taught now is the first responder even if he is not backed up is to do his best to enter and try and "neutralize" the shooter/shooters. No more will they just let the victims fend for themselves.....it isnt right.

now what in hell went down in orlando is not what goes down in Texas. I am betting that my son and the rest of his team are mighty pissed at what didnt happen in Orlando.

 

[TX1972]

Actually it was probably a better idea than sitting for 3 hours with....When C Whitman started shooting people from the Tower, the radio stations called for civilians to act. Within 20 minutes the gunfire from below stopped further mayhem.

 

[CaptainZigZag]

Agreed. Is the Orlando SWAT team gay too?

Would it matter if they were? Jeezus dude.

 

[oldhorn2]

I dont know that I said that right. What I meant to say is that the training now is to enter right away without waiting for intel.....people ( make that unarmed civilians) are being killed and the Police imperitive is to protect them. They go in!...no bullshit about it....if they arrive at the scene, rthey are to enter and do what they can to neutralize the guy/guys. It does not sound like that is what happened in Orlando....Do you know how long it must take to shoot 100 people?...20 round clip...reload...20 round clip?...That kind of crap just shouldnt happen.

 

[clob94]

Ok....Clob...this one you dont have right. My son is the DPS instructor that goes all over the country to instruct police departments about the crime scene. After the shooting at Virginia tech...everything changed.. Before that, the Swat teams would cordon off the area and then wait for a signal to enter the building. What is being taught now is the first responder even if he is not backed up is to do his best to enter and try and "neutralize" the shooter/shooters. No more will they just let the victims fend for themselves.....it isnt right.

now what in hell went down in orlando is not what goes down in Texas. I am betting that my son and the rest of his team are mighty pissed at what didnt happen in Orlando.

Oldhorn based on the conversations with your son (I have two identical twin cousins from west texas that retired from DPS a few years back maybe your boy knows them) does DPS get to train with Feds and DEA, ATF etc and do they in turn train with local PD? I know a guy that was a marine, then DSS and he said they did a little cross training with other agencies but not much.

And if Orlando SWAT was who we saw, not FBI, I'm surprised they didn't go in sooner. We're they negotiating with the guy? So few details about the actual event has come out. The dudes I've seen in photos/video from the incident wore coyote tan body armor. FBI? State police? Any idea?

 

[jsto60]

.Do you know how long it must take to shoot 100 people?...20 round clip...reload...20 round clip?...That kind of crap just shouldnt happen.

I agree with your point. Just thought I'd highlight that in these situations there are usually multiple guns on the guy and multiple preloaded clips. Don't think they are sitting there blowing bubble gum and slipping rounds in to a clip while everyone else is busy texting, tweeting, facetiming, snapchatting, and staring in terror at a guy with an unloaded gun just leisurely load a clip.

 

[oldhorn2]

jsto....no the guy obviously had pre loaded clips. Multiple guns mean nothing. What I meant was, even with several dozen pre loaded clips it takes a while to shoot what must have been several hundred rounds( I dont think every round was a hit....must have been spraying)...That takes a while to do and requiresthem to be right there on him. My point was....why was he allowed so much time to just keep shooting and shooting. Frankly I suspect some "friendly fire" was involved.

Clob....my son does train police departments all over the State. I dont know about FBI and DEA. Hopefully he stays clear of that clown act. From personal experience I am amazed they ever solve a crime.

There has to be a lot to this story that has not been released.

 

[NDAFArly]

A few notes from this conversation:

1) It was reported initially the shooter had a "device attached to his body" which would stop any SWAT or other personnel from entering until they knew what it was. That is protocol.
2) MacDill is a Command (SOCOM) not an actual unit that has Tier 1 assaulters assigned.
3) AFSOC is out of Hulburt Field, not Eglin. But the 22 STS at Hulburt is not a TIER 1 assault squadron. The 24 STS at Pope in NC is the Tier 1 squadron.
4) Even though military SOC units do receive Intel, about 90% of the time the situation changes once on the ground or in CQB. That is why Tier 1 units are expected to change & adapt on the go & make decisions without hesitation. That's what really makes them elite.
5) We really don't know what happened & others saying what they would do is pointless if they weren't there in the moment.

Just throwing out my two cents on what someone from AF STS might say if they read this thread.

 

[txn_in_wa]

Agreed. Is the Orlando SWAT team gay too?

Just dumb. Just dumb. Smh. You and others on this board have no idea what they were dealing with in this situation. There have been some thoughtful posts about what was going on, but your comment was just dumb.

 

[clob94]

A few notes from this conversation:

1) It was reported initially the shooter had a "device attached to his body" which would stop any SWAT or other personnel from entering until they knew what it was. That is protocol.
2) MacDill is a Command (SOCOM) not an actual unit that has Tier 1 assaulters assigned.
3) AFSOC is out of Hulburt Field, not Eglin. But the 22 STS at Hulburt is not a TIER 1 assault squadron. The 24 STS at Pope in NC is the Tier 1 squadron.
4) Even though military SOC units do receive Intel, about 90% of the time the situation changes once on the ground or in CQB. That is why Tier 1 units are expected to change & adapt on the go & make decisions without hesitation. That's what really makes them elite.
5) We really don't know what happened & others saying what they would do is pointless if they weren't there in the moment.

Just throwing out my two cents on what someone from AF STS might say if they read this thread.

Good call NDA. I threw McDill out there because it was nearby, and even though command structure is there, I assume from time to time there has to be assets visiting for "unknown" reasons. I threw out Eglin because I know elements of the 7th sfg is based there. I know ODA's are not tier 1, but I'd give them the nod over local police Swat.

And yes, I've seen the reports as well (now) that they suspected he had something attached to him that could have been a bomb. No doubt, a game changer.

However, this brings me back to the fact that it's all pretty much moot because, as bad a$$ as those guys are, they still can't act on US soil without a sh!t ton of laws being broken and/or legally averted. Personally, I'd be totally cool with those guys being allowed a hall pass on US soil in hostage situations or active shooter situations only.

But thank you for your input man! It's completely cool to add people to this board that posses knowledge that we can all benefit from.

 

[FlourBluffHorn]

Actually it was probably a better idea than sitting for 3 hours with....When C Whitman started shooting people from the Tower, the radio stations called for civilians to act. Within 20 minutes the gunfire from below stopped further mayhem.

And then told them to stop as there was Police going up there, shit everybody and their mamma was shootin in a 20 block radius and they had to stop them cause of the DPS plane flying around with sharpshooter plus we had no Swat team then only regular cops..

Hook'em

 

[LongfellowDrew]

I'm pretty sure no one rushed in due to the device that was supposedly strapped to the shooter.