Ketch's 10 Thoughts From the Weekend (Don't be surprised when these things happen...)

[TexasLawnghorn]

Not according to NFL Stats... where you getting your numbers from?

ESPN says 38: http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/72/emmitt-smith
NFL says 54: http://www.nfl.com/player/emmittsmith/2503017/profile
PFR says 61: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitEm00.htm#all_rushing_and_receiving

Weird that these 3 sources would have 3 different numbers.

 

[CPHornfan]

How much did defensive tackles weight when Jim Brown played. How fast were the linebackers? How multiple were the defenses?

It was an era when defenses were built to stop the run and Brown dominated them all. He is the only running back in the history of the NFL to average more than 100 yards rushing per game (104.3). He also holds the NFL record for career yards per carry (5.2). Eight-time NFL rushing champion, a four-time NFL MVP and he was selected as an All-Pro eight times during his Hall of Fame career. He only played nine freaking seasons, yet he is still without a doubt the greatest running back in any era of professional football.

118 games — 12,312 rushing yards, 5.2 ypc, 106 rushing TDs; 15,459 all-purpose yards, 126 total TDs - LMAO @ Emmit Smith(a guy that played 108 more games than Brown).

If you are going to compare any runner to Brown, do it with someone who played a similar number of games and years(like Barry Sanders - 153 games over 10 seasons). Sanders would still finish 2nd to Brown as the greatest ever.

 

[johncoshea]

How many Hall of Fame offensive lineman blocked for Emmitt?

One - Larry Allen who was drafted in '94... after Emmitt's first two Super Bowls and his '93 MVP.

 

[TexasLawnghorn]

One - Larry Allen who was drafted in '94... after Emmitt's first two Super Bowls and his '93 MVP.

Bingo. Either the idea that Emmitt ran behind the "Greatest Offensive Line in NFL History" is a myth meant to undermine Emmitt's accomplishments, or there should be several more NFL Hall of Fame offensive linemen from the 1990s Cowboys teams.

 

[johncoshea]

It was an era when defenses were built to stop the run and Brown dominated them all. He is the only running back in the history of the NFL to average more than 100 yards rushing per game (104.3). He also holds the NFL record for career yards per carry (5.2). Eight-time NFL rushing champion, a four-time NFL MVP and he was selected as an All-Pro eight times during his Hall of Fame career. He only played nine freaking seasons, yet he is still without a doubt the greatest running back in any era of professional football.

118 games — 12,312 rushing yards, 5.2 ypc, 106 rushing TDs; 15,459 all-purpose yards, 126 total TDs - LMAO @ Emmit Smith(a guy that played 108 more games than Brown).

I believe everyone thinks Brown was a phenomenal back. He was also a freak athlete at 6'3" and 232 lbs. for his era. It's not hard to imagine that his physicality and speed wouldn't be head-and-shoulders above everyone else in this day and age. Athletes are just different. Bob Cousy was a great PG in his day. Do you really see him doing that in today's NBA? For a comparison, this is the NFL all decade team for the 60's defensive linemen (and frankly I was surprised at some of their sizes: Doug Atkins 6'5" 257, Willie Davis 6'3" 243, Deacon Jones 6'5" 265, Alex Karras 6'2" 248, Bob Lilly 6'5" 260, and Merlin Olson 6'5" 270. Now compare to the 90's all decade team: Bruce Smith 6'4" 265, Reggie White 6'5" 300, Cortez Kennedy 6'3" 306, and John Randle 6'1" 287. And this does not even take into account the speed differential as defensive linemen now routinely run sub 5 second 40s. Brown was superlative and the greatest running back of his time. Would love to see what he put up in this day and age.

 

[W_a_L1989]

Yes, those great linemen got great when Emmitt showed up and made them great. There is a marker moment when all of the Dallas offensive players started looking great... when Emmitt hit the field

Actuallly Emmitt got there before Williams and no smith did not make Williams great. Don’t remember smith helping him block Reggie white. Smith had nothing to do with newton moving to guard where he was a better fit. Your bias is showing here. Very few rankings have smith as the top running back. Hell I have read posts from you saying what a great ol Williams was before the accident.

 

[LARC]

I find the OL talking points to discredit Emmit somewhat fascinating. These were Emmitt's pre-Larry Allen offensive lines:


1990
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Crawford Kerr (3rd round)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
John Gesek (10th round)
Nate Newton (undrafted)

1991
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Kevin Gogan (8th round)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
John Gesek (10th round)
Nate Newton (undrafted)

1992
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Nate Newton (undrafted)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
John Gesek (10th round)
Erik Williams (3rd round)

1993
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Nate Newton (undrafted)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
Kevin Gogan (8th round)
Erik Williams (3rd round)

Emmitts career totals: 5,699 rushing yards (w/ 3 rushing titles), 50 rushing TD's, 4.5 ypc,

Not exactly a who's who of offensive line royalty. It's almost like, while they worked well a group, they were performed a heck of a lot better than than personnel would indicate they should in part because they were blocking for an elite running back or something....

 

[magnahorn]

How many Hall of Fame offensive lineman blocked for Emmitt?

Have you never heard of the Great Wall of Dallas?

The is from Erik Williams site:

From 1992 to 1994, together with Nate Newton, Mark Tuinei, Mark Stepnoski and Kevin Gogan, he was part of some of the best offensive lines to play in NFL history, later dubbed "The Great Wall of Dallas".

That particular line doesn't even include Larry Allen, who is in the Hall of Fame. Allen arrived in Dallas in '94.

Here's the list of offensive linemen who predominantly played in the 90's who are in the HOF:

Larry Allen
Dermontti Dawson
Bruce Matthews
Willie Roaf
Randall McDonald
Gary Zimmerman

For comparison, here are the RB's that predominantly played in thr '90's who are in the HO:

Emmitt Smith
Marcus Allen
Jerome Betts
Terrell Davis
Marshall Faulk
Curtis Martin
Barry Sanders
Thurman Thomas

So there are 8 RB's and only 6 OL's in the HOF from that period.

That's it. So if you are trying to argue Dallas' O-line was not that great because they only had 1 HOF lineman during that time that argument falls on deaf ears. O-linemen just don't get in at the same rate as other players. I would argue Erik Williams probably would be in too except for his off the field shenanigans.

 

[CPHornfan]

I believe everyone thinks Brown was a phenomenal back. He was also a freak athlete at 6'3" and 232 lbs. for his era. It's not hard to imagine that his physicality and speed wouldn't be head-and-shoulders above everyone else in this day and age. Athletes are just different. Bob Cousy was a great PG in his day. Do you really see him doing that in today's NBA? For a comparison, this is the NFL all decade team for the 60's defensive linemen (and frankly I was surprised at some of their sizes: Doug Atkins 6'5" 257, Willie Davis 6'3" 243, Deacon Jones 6'5" 265, Alex Karras 6'2" 248, Bob Lilly 6'5" 260, and Merlin Olson 6'5" 270. Now compare to the 90's all decade team: Bruce Smith 6'4" 265, Reggie White 6'5" 300, Cortez Kennedy 6'3" 306, and John Randle 6'1" 287. And this does not even take into account the speed differential as defensive linemen now routinely run sub 5 second 40s. Brown was superlative and the greatest running back of his time. Would love to see what he put up in this day and age.

So now we are into the era conversations. ok
20 years from now(if NFL is still around), these conversations will still continue.

 

[johncoshea]

Bingo. Either the idea that Emmitt ran behind the "Greatest Offensive Line in NFL History" is a myth meant to undermine Emmitt's accomplishments, or there should be several more NFL Hall of Fame offensive linemen from the 1990s Cowboys teams.

His OL weren't even named first team all 90's decade team (Larry Allen was second team as was Step.). Heck, you could make the argument with Minnesota has the best OL in the 90's with Zimmerman and McDaniels.

 

[sodiumacetate]

Few things in sports are worse than watching people argue back and forth about greatest ever lists. Saw enough of it with the LBJ/MJ stuff a few months back.

It serves no purpose. Nobody is ever going to be convinced of the other person's viewpoint on something that is by definition so subjective.

 

[johncoshea]

So now we are into the era conversations. ok

When it comes to trying to measure athletes - sure. 6'3" RBs at 230+ lbs. are not a unicorn today. Athletes are bigger, faster, and stronger.

 

[CS]

Here's a stat:

Jerry Rice played 20 NFL seasons. He had a Pro Bowl quarterback in 14 of them (70 percent).

 

[Lone Starr]

No. 9 - The List: Best NFL Running Backs of All-Time ...​

10. Adrian Peterson
9. Tony Dorsett
8. O.J. Simpson
7. Eric Dickerson
6. Earl Campbell
5. Marshall Faulk
4. Barry Sanders
3. Walter Payton
2. Jim Brown
1. Emmitt Smith

View embedded media

This is wrong and I'm a huge Cowboys fan. Swap Smith and Sanders and you'll be good.

Good grief, Smith's O-line is considered one of the best of all time and he had a hall of fame QB and WR. Sanders played for the Lions and was the ONLY reason they won any games at all.

Put Emmitt on those 90s Lions teams and Barry on the Cowboys and tell me what you think their stats would be. You think Emmitt would have all those rings? You think Barry would have worse stats than Emmitt had he played for the Cowboys?

Here's a fun read.

http://optimumsportsperformance.com/blog/comparing-barry-sanders-and-emmitt-smith/

 

[CPHornfan]

Here's a stat:

Jerry Rice played 20 NFL seasons. He had a Pro Bowl quarterback in 14 of them (70 percent).

No idea why you are on an anti-Rice crusade, but here are some other Rice stats

Rice is so far ahead of everyone in receptions (1,549), yards (22,895) and touchdown catches (197). Frankly, his records will never be surpassed, due to his productivity and longevity (20 seasons). His most impressive accomplishment might have been his 22-touchdown campaign in 1987, which he accomplished in 12 games!

Simply said, Rice combined work ethic, explosiveness at the snap (not 40 speed), a perfectionist personality and want-to to become the standard at the position. Not who threw him the ball.

 

[CS]

No idea why you are on an anti-Rice crusade, but here are some other Rice stats

Rice is so far ahead of everyone in receptions (1,549), yards (22,895) and touchdown catches (197). Frankly, his records will never be surpassed, due to his productivity and longevity (20 seasons). His most impressive accomplishment might have been his 22-touchdown campaign in 1987, which he accomplished in 12 games!

Simply said, Rice combined work ethic, explosiveness at the snap (not 40 speed), a perfectionist personality and want-to to become the standard at the position. Not who threw him the ball.

If we have established that the most touches, yards and touchdowns at receiver makes that player the GOAT of the position, then what would we say about a running back who has the most touches, yards and touchdowns at his position?

 

[CS]

Have you never heard of the Great Wall of Dallas?

The is from Erik Williams site:

From 1992 to 1994, together with Nate Newton, Mark Tuinei, Mark Stepnoski and Kevin Gogan, he was part of some of the best offensive lines to play in NFL history, later dubbed "The Great Wall of Dallas".

That particular line doesn't even include Larry Allen, who is in the Hall of Fame. Allen arrived in Dallas in '94.

Here's the list of offensive linemen who predominantly played in the 90's who are in the HOF:

Larry Allen
Dermontti Dawson
Bruce Matthews
Willie Roaf
Randall McDonald
Gary Zimmerman

For comparison, here are the RB's that predominantly played in thr '90's who are in the HO:

Emmitt Smith
Marcus Allen
Jerome Betts
Terrell Davis
Marshall Faulk
Curtis Martin
Barry Sanders
Thurman Thomas

So there are 8 RB's and only 6 OL's in the HOF from that period.

That's it. So if you are trying to argue Dallas' O-line was not that great because they only had 1 HOF lineman during that time that argument falls on deaf ears. O-linemen just don't get in at the same rate as other players. I would argue Erik Williams probably would be in too except for his off the field shenanigans.

I've asked many times, and you've ignored the question each time. In light of your views about Emmitt Smith relative to his teammates, how do you evaluate Jerry Rice among wide receivers?

 

[CPHornfan]

If we have established that the most touches, yards and touchdowns at receiver makes that player the GOAT of the position, then what would we say about a running back who has the most touches, yards and touchdowns at his position?

My GOAT at wide receiver would actually go to

 

[JinSOTEX]

I find the OL talking points to discredit Emmit somewhat fascinating. These were Emmitt's pre-Larry Allen offensive lines:


1990
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Crawford Kerr (3rd round)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
John Gesek (10th round)
Nate Newton (undrafted)

1991
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Kevin Gogan (8th round)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
John Gesek (10th round)
Nate Newton (undrafted)

1992
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Nate Newton (undrafted)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
John Gesek (10th round)
Erik Williams (3rd round)

1993
Mark Tuinei (undrafted)
Nate Newton (undrafted)
Mark Stephnoski (3rd round)
Kevin Gogan (8th round)
Erik Williams (3rd round)

Emmitts career totals: 5,699 rushing yards (w/ 3 rushing titles), 50 rushing TD's, 4.5 ypc,

Not exactly a who's who of offensive line royalty. It's almost like, while they worked well a group, they were performed a heck of a lot better than than personnel would indicate they should in part because they were blocking for an elite running back or something....

No way. Impossible. It’s all the line per some and 50 random dudes could have matched Smith’s career in Dallas because the line had him floating on air

 

[CS]

My GOAT at wide receiver would actually go to

View embedded media

Then I will actually listen to your argument that Emmitt Smith is not the GOAT. What I won't do is listen to somebody downgrade Emmitt Smith for having great teammates and then turn around and say Jerry Rice is the GOAT at receiver.

 

[CPHornfan]

Then I will actually listen to your argument that Emmitt Smith is not the GOAT

Already presented my arguments on that, and thks for listening.

 

[Ketchum]

Wow, no love for Marcus Allen?

He might have been next on the list.

 

[Ketchum]

stan?

stan
stan/
informal
noun

1. 1.
   an overzealous or obsessive fan of a particular celebrity.
   "he has millions of stans who are obsessed with him and call him a rap god"

verb

1. 1.
   be an overzealous or obsessive fan of a particular celebrity.
   "y'all know I stan for Katy Perry, so I was excited to see the artwork for her upcoming album"

 

[Denz Washington]

Wow, no love for Marcus Allen?

He might have been next on the list.

He was pretty decent.

 

[Ketchum]

Actuallly Emmitt got there before Williams and no smith did not make Williams great. Don’t remember smith helping him block Reggie white. Smith had nothing to do with newton moving to guard where he was a better fit. Your bias is showing here. Very few rankings have smith as the top running back. Hell I have read posts from you saying what a great ol Williams was before the accident.

See every comment I've ever made about Erik Williams.

 

[Ketchum]

He was pretty decent.

I wouldn't fight you on it if you said he HAD to be in. Like I said, he was probably No.11 for me.

 

[Ketchum]

My GOAT at wide receiver would actually go to

View embedded media

lol @ NFL Films.

 

[texcoast]

Ketch, you had me until you said Emmitt Smith was the greatest running back of all time. Huh?

 

[Ketchum]

Ketch, you had me until you said Emmitt Smith was the greatest running back of all time. Huh?

I stated my case. It has yet to be breached by anyone suggesting otherwise.

 

[CPHornfan]

Ketch, you had me until you said Emmitt Smith was the greatest running back of all time. Huh?

well Miley Cyrus is the sexiest woman of all time. Go figure.