Ketch's 10 Thoughts From the Weekend (Let's just talk about it 2.0...)

[James.jones8]

I suppose it comes down to this for me.

Were those dudes expected to just swallow their feelings forever on this or do they deserve to be able to say how they feel?

I really find it hard to believe that if it was such a big deal that it would have been kept on the down low until now. Maybe I am naive. I honestly think that if you dig deep enough that you will find undertones of racism in damn near anything if that’s what you want to find. Whether the Eyes of Texas stays or goes really does not matter. It is now been painted as racist and whether it is or isn’t is irrelevant in the court of public opinion. Just my two cents.

 

[stingray10]

Data show it to be the correct view.

Correct. As hard as that it for some people to swallow

 

[TCUHorns]

the interesting thing to me in this is I feel bad - and I feel bad for the players

And I feel the players don’t care about us or our support it’s almost like the feelings for a pro team

I could be wrong in this, I’d bet I’m part right and part wrong, not sure how much of each... but it kind of feels like UT players don’t like the UT fans anymore. Feels like they think we’re a bunch of old white racist rednecks that don’t give a crap about them (which couldn’t be further from the truth).

 

[usa_jwtw]

THIS. I’ve been posting about this for 3 days all over this board, including on page 3 ITT, and haven’t gotten a decent rebuttal from anyone.

1) Why do we use Apple equipment?
2) Why is Nike a partner of ours?
3) Why do we partner with/receive donations from middle eastern countries that still kill gay people, treat women and children like trash, and use modern day slavery?
4) Why does our athletic department allow music that degrades women, promotes violence, and promotes drug use?

These are all as bad or worse than The Eyes of Texas’ 100-year old roots.

Maybe Ketch will answer these questions?

 

[Pho King Master]

I have no idea if there is or isn't. Go find it.

You're the one who is claiming numerous former players going back many years have had an issue with the song. This despite no mention of this ever being made on this site or anywhere else. Seems fishy.

 

[stingray10]

I could be wrong in this, I’d bet I’m part right and part wrong, not sure how much of each... but it kind of feels like UT players don’t like the UT fans anymore. Feels like they think we’re a bunch of old white racist rednecks that don’t give a crap about them (which couldn’t be further from the truth).

Which is scary, what must the aggie, ole miss, and bama players think???

 

[Ketchum]

If UT throws The Eyes away, and agrees to all the other requests from the players... will the racial healing on Texas’ campus be complete? Or will there be something else deemed racist next year, and the year after, and the year after? Or something deemed racist to a completely new group of players in a few years, that wasn’t racist to this years group of players?

What about the University of Texas being a friend and partner of Nike, who uses modern day slavery to make our uniforms, shoes and athletic gear? Why do they get a pass? Our partnership helps keep their slave sweatshops open. Shouldn’t UT give all the money Nike has given us back over the use of modern day slavery?

Why doesn’t our program ban the usage Apple products? Women and children and Uygher muslims in China make those under slave conditions as well.

What about the middle eastern countries the University of Texas receives donations from, and partners with in various avenues? It’s still punishable by death to be homosexual in many of those countries. On top of that, many of them still use slavery in 2020, treat women and children like 3rd class citizens, and have legal honor killings.

Why is UT allowed to play music on the loud speakers before and during athletic games that promotes violence, degrades women, and promotes drug use? What if students/fans at UT were offended by that? No more rap & hip hop music within the athletic department?

Texans killed Native Americans and Mexicans conquering the state of Texas. Stephen F Austin had slaves. People spoke yesterday about burning down the Alamo in San Antonio. Where will the final line be drawn? Couldn’t everything on earth offend someone? Every single country and group of people on earth have a violent, oppressive past. It’s very shortsighted to view everything in the history of the world through a Present Day lens.

I don’t know exactly where the line should be drawn. I also respect the players feelings, and want the best for them and want them to enjoy their time at Texas and be proud of it... at the same time— this is just a really slippery slope that could go on and on forever and it will never please everyone. It’s been happening around the country for years now, and now it’s banging on college football’s door.

I'm not sure how to answer the questions in the first paragraph. I think these kids just want to feel like they are being active and involved on matters of social and racial concerns. Creating change could fill that desire or it could make it thirst for more. I can't predict that.

at some point, all of the hypocrisy questions need to be ask, including the Nike ones.

The world is drenched with it.

If anyone wants to protest music played at the stadium for any reason at all, I'd guess they'd get a song removed from a playlist pretty easily. Not a ton of thought goes into those.

I feel like most of the rest of the post is hypocrisy, hypocrisy and more hypocrisy, similar to some of the things we discussed when Darryl Morey set off the China firestorm.

I get it.

 

[Ketchum]

You're the one who is claiming numerous former players going back many years have had an issue with the song. This despite no mention of this ever being made on this site or anywhere else. Seems fishy.

There are numerous articles online that detail protests over the Eyes spanning the last 20 years.

 

[TCUHorns]

Franz Josef Haydn — one of the greatest classical composers who ever lived — wrote a beautiful religious hymn, the tune of which was adopted as the German national anthem by the Weimar Republic in 1922. The Nazis expropriated that beautiful tune for their own odious purposes during the 1930s and 1940s. It would probably appall the Nazis that that tune — with different words of course — is the national anthem of Germany today, sung by millions on the left, center, and right who are members of a free and open society that utterly rejects any hint of Nazi ideology. The point is that it only has the meaning people choose to attach to it.

I don’t give a sh_t what the obscure origins of a song were, because it’s been sung by literally millions of Texans and other UT graduates as a song of unity and inspiration for decades without the least hint or intent of any racist connotations whatsoever. That controls “the narrative” for me. Assuming for a small group of people it ever did have those connotations — it’s been wrested away from them and the fact that it has been sung ever since in honor of UT and its achievements by all the races who’ve attended The University is the ultimate rejection of whatever real or imagined meaning it may have held for that handful of people well over a century ago.

Ninety years ago tomorrow, the New York Times wrote:

"And what Texan will not be similarly affected by the strains of ‘The Eyes of Texas Are Upon You’? This, the University of Texas song, is accepted, through use, as the official song of the State."

- New York Times, June 15, 1930

That is the meaning I choose to attach to it. To hell with some idiotic minstrel group who sure as hell doesn’t speak for any of us.

This is a perfect example.

 

[TNobis60]

Yeah, this has been a topic on campus, as evidenced by a lot of daily Texan articles, over the last 20 years or so.

Well that would explain it. I haven’t read the Texan since I graduated over 20 years ago. Same issues? The song and the buildings? You may not know but thought I’d ask.

I also am out of touch on the football honorees. I presume that the racial mix is pretty good on those football players who have been honored. I know Earl and Ricky are the most prominent with statues.

 

[wbrom42]

Thanks.

You may dislike me so much that you don’t care, but I agree with him completely. You are handling this like a champ.

 

[qwanseeker]

The song is in no way racist. To me the real question is who is sowing these seeds of discontent?

all the evidence points to Dr. Moore as the guilty party. The university needs to investigate his role in all of this.

 

[Pho King Master]

There are numerous articles online that detail protests over the Eyes spanning the last 20 years.

There have been protests over the singing of the Eyes spanning 20 years? Not true.

Where is the evidence former players had issues with the song? We should be able to watch old games and see clear trends of the same players refusing to sing it. I suspect if that were true, you'd have already posted it.

 

[Ketchum]

all the evidence points to Dr. Moore as the guilty party. The university needs to investigate his role in all of this.

One day, Dr. Moore is going to have a statue on this campus. He's sooooooo much more of an asset than a problem.

 

[Ketchum]

There have been protests over the singing of the Eyes spanning 20 years? Not true.

Where is the evidence former players had issues with the song? We should be able to watch old games and see clear trends of the same players refusing to sing it. I suspect if that were true, you'd have already posted it.

Just curious... have you never noticed that a number of black athletes aren't very enthusiastic about the song?

 

[TD TX TD VY]

The State of Texas chose to join the Confederacy.

First, that entire, ugly stain on our great State's history has not deterred blacks from settling and living within its borders for 155 years. Why have they not cared?

Second, how could our current black student athletes not be aware of Texas' past at the time they accepted full athletic scholarships to the State's flagship University? Why did they not care?

What has changed?

 

[Pho King Master]

all the evidence points to Dr. Moore as the guilty party. The university needs to investigate his role in all of this.

I suspect he's been planting seeds for many years now and has finally found an opportunity to pounce and has his pawns doing his dirty work for him.

 

[magnahorn]

There is nothing racist about the song, and most level headed people know this. The song had a bad weekend. Certain people won’t change their mind, but here’s hoping the majority don’t allow distant past history destroy a great tradition that is embedded in our conscious.

I really don't think you're grasping what has happened here. I agree with you, the words of the song are not offensive, the tune of the song is not offensive, but the roots of the song, whether fairly or unfairly, have been labelled as entrenched in racism. In other words, the song has now been labelled and the school, by that finding, now has another layer or racist game day tradition that is going to have to be dealt with.

That label is not going away. Not this week, not next week, not ever.

Changing a few words isn't going to help. Changing the tune or when we play it isn't going to help either.

Sure, we can decide to allow the black students not to participate. But did you read Ketch's Thoughts From the Weekend? He cites statements from black former students that have already decided they will no longer stand when the song is played. You know what that's going to look like? It's going to look just like the National Anthem. Do you think that is a good look? It's a rhetorical question because the answer is no it is not.

So we're now in a position where we can just keep playing the song, damn the torpedoes, and be that school that just doesn't get it about 400 years and black oppression and BLM, or we can be the school that takes a deep gulp and mothballs the song.

As much as I love TEOT I just don't see how it survives. Maybe it doesn't get nixed this week but it's only a matter of time.

The only thing that's going to be worse than nixing the song is all the crap songs everyone is going to try to submit to replace it.

 

[Pho King Master]

Just curious... have you never noticed that a number of black athletes aren't very enthusiastic about the song?

After losses

 

[Ketchum]

Here are some thoughts from Charles Omenihu

 

[Ketchum]

After losses

I can't say that I ever gave it much of a second thought beyond the observations in real time, but I have always occasionally noticed less enthusiasm for the song from some... certainly nothing close to all or even a majority.

especially from basketball players.

 

[satterwm]

They have been upset in the past. This is not a new development. Guys like Sam Acho have gone in the record about it.

When did he go on the record about it? Just curious.

Not that it matters at this point, but please tell me that this sudden recognition of the song's history isn't due to a particular UT professor.

 

[Harold_1221]

I cant see a situation where the Eyes of Texas is ever played at another Texas sporting event ever again.

That may not have been what the players were aiming for, but as you said, what we have learned in the last 3 days cant been un-learned. Not only do you have to convince all the football players to have the song be played before the game, but you have to convince the entire UT band, an organization with 400-500 members that are almost all liberal pro BLM students and many black students, to all stand together and play the song. If ONE black member of the UT band tweets out that they refuse to play the Eyes, what percentage of their band mates will stand in solidarity with that one person on their protest and refuse to play it? My money is on 98% of them.

So how do you tell the football players they don't have to be there and stand for the song, but then you tell 400-500 band members that they have to stand there and play the song?

Bottom line, even if the song has a 90% in favor and 10% against it ratio... do you really want the pre-game hype machine program to include something that can divide the home teams fans in any way? How many fans that are anti-Eyes of Texas are going to be pumped up for kickoff 5-10 minutes after hearing that song?

This is a cant put the toothpaste back in the tube situation we have here. And if the BMDs want to take their ball and go home over it like petulant little children, Ill be happy to have my seats upgraded to their much better and now vacant seats.


EDIT: I thought my post aboit members of the band was very insightful and original until I got down to Ketch's elmo gif after posting this. Insert my own elmo gif here.

I think this is what upsets me the most with how this was handled. It has set up a situation where there are only losers.

(1) The Eyes either goes away mostly or completely and you have a lot of pissed off/offended alums that cannot fathom how something so tangential could possibly be construed in such a manner or (2) student-athletes view the "fans" as racists at worst or individuals that don't care about them and who don't stand up against racism at best.

My family always taught me that we stayed and sang the eyes of Texas not only for school pride but to also show appreciation for the players. Basically the least we could do after they put the effort out on the field for 4 quarters was to stand up and sing with them after the game no matter the result. I've tried to teach my kids the same thing. So in the sports context, if the players really feel this way (no matter how unfathomable or misguided I think it is) I could probably live with some change. I don't think I'd be comfortable singing the song and/or encouraging my kids to sing it if it truly makes our student athletes feel oppressed or uncomfortable.

At the same time, I can't help but feel upset that there's an implication that the song that I learned from my family, sang countless times and that I've taught to my young daughters was ever sung or will ever be sung with anything but the best intentions for the school and the players. And I'm sure I'm not alone in those feelings.

I'm hoping some additional education and discussion can either make me more at peace with the song going away or allow the athletes to get comfortable with the school song going forward.

 

[North1954]

Great column Ketch! The best I remember. Like many people I have been pissed off since the players list of issues came out. But mostly I have been pissed off by the reaction rather than the demands. I did not know the history of the song. Now that I do I won’t be singing it again. I like some songs that have the N-word in them. I don’t sing those because even though I would have no racist intent in singing them I know it might offend people if they heard me. I’m white. It’s not ever okay for me to use that word. Black people can say it. Is that a double standard? I don’t think so. The context is totally different and context matters.

In this day and age it is not enough to just not be racist. I like to think most of us aren’t consciously racist. However to people who have been victims of systemic racism their entire lives it’s simply not enough that we’re not racist. We need to be actively anti-racist. We ALL KNOW that the experience of growing up white and growing up black is not the same in this country. Even if you’re an elite athlete. I was relatively poor growing up but I had a family that was well known and I got away with a lot of stuff. Most of it was harmless but I am not naive enough to believe that the result would have been the same if I wasn’t white. My family never owned slaves. I have never been overtly racist. That doesn’t absolve me of responsibility. Remember the Declaration of Independence. “All Men are Created Equal”. Many of the signatories owned slaves. The great irony that is America. Eventually slavery was disallowed at a tremendous cost. Now, over 150 years later, racism needs to go away. Even the appearance of racism needs to go away. It may occasionally cost us a song or a movie that we like and associate with good times and memories. Luckily we can keep our memories as long as we want. We need to have a little empathy and understand that because we don’t mean something as racist that it still can be perceived that way.

The Eyes of Texas is done. Most people will not want to sing it now. It’s a great tradition. Like playing the Aggies on Thanksgiving. Traditions end. It’s had a nice run of 117 years. Let it go.

My most memorable road game was against aggie in 93. I was there at Kyle Field with my Aggie brother in law. My wife refused to go because it was stupid cold. I have never been so cold in my life. I had ice forming on my face. We lost by 9 points and I barely cared. I just wanted to get out of there. I’m sure Shea Moreno felt the same way. The ramps in the stadium were solid sheets of ice. We watched hundreds, if not thousands, of people bust their asses trying to get down them.

 

[Pho King Master]

I can't say that I ever gave it much of a second thought beyond the observations in real time, but I have always occasionally noticed less enthusiasm for the song from some... certainly nothing close to all or even a majority.

especially from basketball players.

Basketball team has lost a boatload of games over the last few years. Nothing really to be enthusiastic about.

 

[TCUHorns]

I'm not sure how to answer the questions in the first paragraph. I think these kids just want to feel like they are being active and involved on matters of social and racial concerns. Creating change could fill that desire or it could make it thirst for more. I can't predict that.

at some point, all of the hypocrisy questions need to be ask, including the Nike ones.

The world is drenched with it.

If anyone wants to protest music played at the stadium for any reason at all, I'd guess they'd get a song removed from a playlist pretty easily. Not a ton of thought goes into those.

I feel like most of the rest of the post is hypocrisy, hypocrisy and more hypocrisy, similar to some of the things we discussed when Darryl Morey set off the China firestorm.

I get it.

That’s what makes these demands seem so hollow and meaningless to so many of us. It makes it seem like these requests aren’t about oppression & equality at all— makes it seem like it’s just about power and politics.

UT players and the school will throw away the most popular song in the schools history because it was kind of racist 100 years ago...

While at the same time overlooking actual current 2020 slavery that UT helps prop up in Asia, as well as partnering with countries I’m the Middle East that kill gay people and honor-kill women and children, and also use slavery themselves. These are way worse issues than The Eyes of Texas and they’ve been ignored for decades- and I bet they’ll be ignored for several more decades.

Then add the music that calls women bitches & sluts (half our fan base & students are women), and talks about violence— while all our inner cities kids come from areas with terrible crime. AND I’m a fan of rap music, I don’t want any music or songs banned.

I’m not directing this at you, I’d just love to hear the UT admin and UT athletes thoughts on these issues. If they truly care about ending oppression and gaining equality- they would tackle these issues also.

But my money says from 2020 and beyond— we ban a school song while at the same time help other countries keep slavery alive.

 

[Golfer301980]

I’ll say this. I had some profound talks a few weeks ago and I really felt as though it was an awakening for me. I really felt like I saw their perspective.

But in two weeks I still can’t get past all the crime. Fathers not fathering. 1 out of 3 males statistically bound for prison. I can’t get past that.

At a minimum you are talking about a failure to adapt and overcome. At least show me that this is on the freaking radar and I’m willing to jump with both feet to fight for criminal justice system reform.

Perhaps I’m ****ing crazy. Maybe 28.5 months deployed just changed my perspective so much that I’m a lost cause. I should be quiet because I’ll never be normal in society again.

I listen to a lot of combat veteran podcasts. I listen to a lot of guys talk about being turned around. Coming back from the ledge. The one thing you hear over and over and over is that you have stop feeling sorry for yourself. Nobody owes you a goddamn thing.

Programs that help veterans. You hear over and over how you have to have some skin in the game to commit to a program. The pure handouts just fail over and over. No real change happens from the disability money paid out to veterans. Combined with the free drugs, this is the reason so many veterans commit suicide. Here’s $2000 and some pills, thanks.

This is a complex issue. Shaming all white people because of screwed up things done in the past is bullshit. It’ll go freaking nowhere. That shit has to stop.

100% this. I posted earlier that these are young men acting like children with Absolutely no perspective of the real world outside of this great and flawed country. Go outside of this/your privileged country and then tell us about how bad we have it here.

 

[qwanseeker]

No Eyes. Wow. Some of you guys roll over faster than a ten dollar hooker. What a crock. Neither my meager donations, nor my attendance at one or two games a year, will be missed, but if we completely cave on this "demand" then we aren't who I thought we were to begin with. Nineteen year olds engaging in brinkmanship, based on nothing currently applicable or relevant, and all the hand wringers want to appease, naively believing this will be a solution or an endpoint. Yep, and calling the OU game the Red River Rivalry instead of Shootout has curbed gun related crime. I'll show myself out. Theater of the Absurd.

 

[Ketchum]

When did he go on the record about it? Just curious.

Not that it matters at this point, but please tell me that this sudden recognition of the song's history isn't due to a particular UT professor.

I believe he was quoted in a Statesman article, as well ass this.

 

[Pho King Master]

That’s what makes these demands seem so hollow and meaningless to so many of us. It makes it seem like these requests aren’t about oppression & equality at all— makes it seem like it’s just about power and politics.

UT players and the school will throw away the most popular song in the schools history because it was kind of racist 100 years ago...

While at the same time overlooking actual current 2020 slavery that UT helps prop up in Asia, as well as partnering with countries I’m the Middle East that kill gay people and honor-kill women and children, and also use slavery themselves. These are way worse issues than The Eyes of Texas and they’ve been ignored for decades- and I bet they’ll be ignored for several more decades.

Then add the music that calls women bitches & sluts (half our fan base & students are women), and talks about violence— while all our inner cities kids come from areas with terrible crime. AND I’m a fan of rap music, I don’t want any music or songs banned.

I’m not directing this at you, I’d just love to hear the UT admin and UT athletes thoughts on these issues. If they truly care about ending oppression and gaining equality- they would tackle these issues also.

But my money says from 2020 and beyond— we ban a school song while at the same time help other countries keep slavery alive.

All the demands are superficial and would accomplish zero at fighting racism
This is precisely why I think a UT prof is behind this mess.

 

[Buda Horn]

My family always taught me that we stayed and sang the eyes of Texas not only for school pride but to also show appreciation for the players. Basically the least we could do after they put the effort out on the field for 4 quarters was to stand up and sing with them after the game no matter the result. I've tried to teach my kids the same thing. So in the sports context, if the players really feel this way (no matter how unfathomable or misguided I think it is) I could probably live with some change. I don't think I'd be comfortable singing the song and/or encouraging my kids to sing it if it truly makes our student athletes feel oppressed or uncomfortable.

At the same time, I can't help but feel upset that there's an implication that the song that I learned from my family, sang countless times and that I've taught to my young daughters was ever sung or will ever be sung with anything but the best intentions for the school and the players. And I'm sure I'm not alone in those feelings.

I'm in the same boat as you as it relates to the reasons why I stayed to sing the song.

I will give the players the benefit of the doubt that I dont believe they ever looked upon the fans singing the song as racist or the ones making them uncomfortable, but rather I suspect they looked at me as clueless, which is exactly the camp I have been in for 40 years. If they did look upon a fan as a racist for singing the song, I would call that a case of unfair projecting.

My hope is that a new tradition comes out of this that will be a united event after every game that the players and fans can celebrate together. However, I have very little faith in a majority of our fans to be on board with that after reading the board the last 3 days. Too many fans are simply too pissed off at the players for taking their beloved eyes of texas song away, and their response will be to boycott whatever new tradition comes along to replace the eyes.

 

[Pho King Master]

I'm in the same boat as you as it relates to the reasons why I stayed to sing the song.

I will give the players the benefit of the doubt that I dont believe they ever looked upon the fans singing the song as racist or the ones making them uncomfortable, but rather just as clueless, which is the camp I have been in for 40 years. If they did look upon us that way, I would call that a case of unfair projecting.

My hope is that a new tradition comes out of this that will be a united event after every game that the players and fans can celebrate together. However, I have very little faith in a majority of our fans to be on board with that after reading the board the last 3 days. Too many fans are simply too pissedoff at the players for taking their beloved eyes of texas song away, and there response will be to boycott whatever new tradition comes along to replace the eyes.

The only tradition that will follow if the administration caves in to these demands is that in 2 years even more absurd demands will come in and we'll be having this same conversation again.

 

[Mike.Tip]

At this point in time I would not be interested in anything coming out of China or Hong Kong until it is proven reliable. Maybe if some other company licensed the test to be made more locally...

 

[satterwm]

I believe he was quoted in a Statesman article, as well ass this.

View embedded media

Thanks, but the operative word in my question was "when". I wasn't questioning you regarding "if".

I was pretty sure his going on record wasn't prior to the current demands, which my second question is about. The timing of it all.

 

[jdriscoll]

I can't say that I ever gave it much of a second thought beyond the observations in real time, but I have always occasionally noticed less enthusiasm for the song from some... certainly nothing close to all or even a majority.

especially from basketball players.

I would bet anything they think that because it's an old corny tune written by white people from a different time. It doesn't mean it is racist. It just doesn't resonate with their culture in the slightest.

Most of them are first generation Longhorns and some are even first generation college kids. It just doesn't mean much to them.

I was the only white guy on my basketball team in HS and the rest of my team would all think The Eyes is lame as hell. Especially if they had to sing it themselves. Just a different culture, but the song is not racist at all and they need to know that.