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Ketch's 10 Thoughts From the Weekend (What happened in Waco should be personal for all of us...)

@sodiumacetate I can't speak for your black relatives, but my mom is nearly 70 and has followed the entire career of the Williams sisters. Whenever they are in the finals, she watches, and my mom doesn't like sports. My Facebook timeline was full of black people praising them this weekend. Venus and Serena has endured of a lot of racism and double standards throughout their career - imagine the reaction if Maria Sharapova was Serena - and handled it with class.

The Williams sisters are heroes in the black community, and when Ketch says Disney will make a movie, that is not hyperbole.

As far as Tiger goes, most black people distanced themselves from him a long time ago. When he told everyone he was "Cablinasian", which is his right, most black people left him alone. Heck, he hasn't been relevant in golf years. The Williams sisters remain relevant, and more black people identify with them than Tiger.
 
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I'm not trying to be a Homer appoligist, but I believe we as a fan base are too quick to want the hammer to fall on Baylor, and I get it.
too quick? what the **** are you talking about?

I have read the articles from you and Alex, I have listened to the Podcast (which I love), but you guys have gone overboard in your criticism of Horny, even referring that since he was close to Bennitt that he knows about the rape and maybe even was involved in the media coverup.
That's simply not what I've written. I wrote that when Bennett was bragging to alums about having his rapist on the defense in 2015, Horny was his top aide. That is a fact. Horny was a defensive assistant at a time when numerous defensive players were raping and abusing women. That is a fact.

I have never suggested he was involved in the coverup. That's just a lie and flat out misrepresentation of what has happened.

You guys can keep playing the word games and say, look where did I actually type that he was guilty. However, you ARE attempting to damage his reputation, which I think at this point you have succeeded, and yes I know most will laugh at that, but its true.
By word games, you mean point out the truth about what has been said and done?

I'm not attempting to damage anyone's reputation. Horny did all of that himself without anyone's help.

You are basing all of your facts and assumptions due to Baylors lack of transparency, which I agree is shit. Texas got real information from a few people, if you and others don't want to believe that, then that's your right.... but you're wrong for doing so.

I am basing all of my facts on the facts that they are facts.

Look, we have all done stupid shit, even you if I am remembering correctly took some money that was supposed to go to some charity or something to that affect.. I apologize if I am (see what I did there)? Does that make you a bad person? Do I have the right to demand that you be fired? Do I have the right to say what jobs you can and can't have? Well if I am basing it on half truths, then yeah maybe. But you would want to be judged on facts, not assumptions. Texas has based their approval based on facts. Period.

What you did just there is worse than anything I have done. That is actual slander. No, I didn't do any of the things you just alleged.

Look I appreciate you taking time to respond to my questions, you guys do a good job here, most of the time. But be careful to not create the news, just report it.


If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

I find you in this thread to be a liar, an enabler and at times flat out dangerously ridiculous in your inability to properly apply a third-grade level of reading comprehension. You've insulted in me in almost every way that you can insult me, so save that weak attempt at a backhanded compliment at the end.
 
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No, we (raises hand) are not! We are saying stop jumping to conclusions and letting your emotions dictate your thoughts. If you don't have FACTS, that he was guilty of knowing about the rapes, then stay seated! You have NO facts that's he was involved, unless you do, then pretty please for the sake of this discussion, provide your facts that Horny knew what was going on!

Until then you are just trying to rally the lynch mob based on assumptions, which is a sad sad thing.
You need to go sleep it off.
 
And, would if he is around the team? What is the risk, that he encourages players to sexually assault women? Really?? It's that UT looks bad? To whom? Practically no interest in this outside of OB. What a crock this whole issue is.
It's beyond my ability to explain it to you at this point. That isn't a me issue.
 
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too quick? what the **** are you talking about?


That's simply not what I've written. I wrote that when Bennett was bragging to alums about having his rapist on the defense in 2015, Horny was his top aide. That is a fact. Horny was a defensive assistant at a time when numerous defensive players were raping and abusing women. That is a fact.

I have never suggested he was involved in the coverup. That's just a lie and flat out misrepresentation of what has happened.


By word games, you mean point out the truth about what has been said and done?

I'm not attempting to damage anyone's reputation. Horny did all of that himself without anyone's help.



I am basing all of my facts on the facts that they are facts.



What you did just there is worse than anything I have done. That is actual slander. No, I didn't do any of the things you just alleged.



I find you in this thread to be a liar, an enabler and at times flat out dangerously ridiculous in your inability to properly apply a third-grade level of reading comprehension. You've insulted in me in almost every way that you can insult me, so save that weak attempt at a backhanded compliment at the end.

You JUST suggested it he was involved!

What truth have you pointed out, again assumptions, not facts. It's bizarre you don't get it.. I'm a liar? I recall you telling a story, maybe when you were on the air not sure.. about something you did with some money about a charity (again I said I wasn't sure if that was exactly it - but it was something that you share how embarrassed you were over it.. I think maybe it was something lucci tweeted about you and it was your response to it). I can't remember the details exactly as it was a couple of years ago, but it's out there. Maybe other non sheep can shed light on the topic.

I'm dangerous for having an opinion different to your guilty until proven innocent way of thinking? Ok, because that makes sense. The way you treat customers who have a difference of opinion from you is beyond incredible.
 
@sodiumacetate I can't speak for your black relatives, but my mom is nearly 70 and has followed the entire career of the Williams sisters. Whenever they are in the finals, she watches, and my mom doesn't like sports. My Facebook timeline was full of black people praising them this weekend. Venus and Serena has endured of a lot of racism and double standards throughout their career - imagine the reaction if Maria Sharapova was Serena - and handled it with class.

The Williams sisters are heroes in the black community, and when Ketch says Disney will make a movie, that is not hyperbole.

As far as Tiger goes, most black people distanced themselves from him a long time ago. When he told everyone he was "Cablinasian", which is his right, most black people left him alone. Heck, he hasn't been relevant in golf years. The Williams sisters remain relevant, and more black people identify with them than Tiger.
Fair enough. When I read the ten thoughts I just let the original proclamation slide. After all, he is a quintessential fan of the things he likes. Whether it be movies, social issues, sports, or a combination of the above, he likes to make statements with a totalitarian absolutism and seemingly dare anyone to offer a contrasting opinion. But later in the thread I fell for such a comment and here we are. I just don't see the effects of this supposed culture altering career like I have with someone like Tiger or even Billy Jean King.

And I have no doubt there will be a Disney movie. Heck, Disney once made a movie about two girls from my neighborhood that were drag car racing phenoms as kids (Erika and Courtney Enders). Interestingly Courtney was played by Brie Larson.
 
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You JUST suggested it he was involved!

What truth have you pointed out, again assumptions, not facts. It's bizarre you don't get it.. I'm a liar? I recall you telling a story, maybe when you were on the air not sure.. about something you did with some money about a charity (again I said I wasn't sure if that was exactly it - but it was something that you share how embarrassed you were over it.. I think maybe it was something lucci tweeted about you and it was your response to it). I can't remember the details exactly as it was a couple of years ago, but it's out there. Maybe other non sheep can shed light on the topic.

I'm dangerous for having an opinion different to your guilty until proven innocent way of thinking? Ok, because that makes sense. The way you treat customers who have a difference of opinion from you is beyond incredible.
You don't even realize how dangerous your inability to process the truth is. Over and over in this thread, you've just made one wrong assertion after another. I'm done with attempting to discuss this with you. I don't care what you do moving forward.
 
Paperchampion, indeed.

Ok, Blaster, the difference between me and you is that before you made this personal with me and many others, I tried to show respect for your opinion even though I disagreed with you. You, on the other hand, tell people who believe as I do that they don't understand your oh so complex points. You tell them they are like apologist Baylor fans. You tell them they put football before ethics, etc, etc. You are not more ethical than the people who disagree with you. Period. You just have a different opinion. Show some respect.
 
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You need to go sleep it off.

Why? Because I'm not drinking the OB koolaide? Ok. I find it interesting that you as the owner of this site continue to take personal jabs at paying customers, that's a fantastic business model.

Maybe we will hear you with all this anger you have asking those tuff questions to Herman, but I bet we won't.
 
Whether it be movies, social issues, sports, or a combination of the above, he likes to make statements with a totalitarian absolutism and seemingly dare anyone to offer a contrasting opinion. .
I'm not the one that has been contending throughout this thread that the Williams sisters haven't had a significant cultural impact on black women...

I'm not daring anyone to have a contrasting opinion, I'm daring someone to have a good contrasting opinion. I enjoy conversation and discussion, but I can't ignore and let inaccurate positions stand on my watch.;)
 
Why? Because I'm not drinking the OB koolaide? Ok. I find it interesting that you as the owner of this site continue to take personal jabs at paying customers, that's a fantastic business model.

Maybe we will hear you with all this anger you have asking those tuff questions to Herman, but I bet we won't.
Says the guy who wrongly just accused me of stealing from a charity event.

You'll have to forgive my inability to hide my frustration with people who lack the ability to think critically and accurately.
 
Ketch Said:

"I find you in this thread to be a liar, an enabler and at times flat out dangerously ridiculous in your inability to properly apply a third-grade level of reading comprehension. You've insulted in me in almost every way that you can insult me, so save that weak attempt at a backhanded compliment at the end."

Has he insulted your barber?
 
You don't even realize how dangerous your inability to process the truth is. Over and over in this thread, you've just made one wrong assertion after another. I'm done with attempting to discuss this with you. I don't care what you do moving forward.

Right because my belief of treating EVERYONE with respect and not trying to get someone fired or dismissed based off assumptions is a dangerous way of thinking? You sir, have shown your true colors tonight in the thread along with your dangerous agenda (which if anyone paid attention to was tallied about in more than one thread and their podcast (which I still enjoy).

INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY!

Read it, live it!

Sorry if I hurt your feelings.
 
Says the guy who wrongly just accused me of stealing from a charity event.

You'll have to forgive my inability to hide my frustration with people who lack the ability to think critically and accurately.

Dude, you drama much? I said I wasn't sure, not like your site putting out assumptions, I said wasn't sure of the exact thing that you did. Do you deny this conversation took place? I know it was something about money and I think a charity not getting paid. If I remember correctly, it was over an incident that Billy Lucci accused you of over twitter I think. You spoke about it on air I think.

Maybe others will chime in if they remember what the 'thing' you did. If others do, I expect an apology from you.
 
Hyperbole, yes. But you do know their background, right? In an age in which most top tennis players have to weather the mean streets of IMG Academy under the tutelage of Nick Bolleteri, Venus and Serena were learning to play on public courts in Compton, CA, taught by their father, who learned how to play from books and videos. Yes, it will make a hell of a Disney movie.

"Serena's father—a former sharecropper from Louisiana determined to see his two youngest girls succeed—used what he'd gleaned from tennis books and videos to instruct Serena and Venus on how to play the game. At the age of 3, practicing on a court not far from the family's new Compton, California, home, Serena withstood the rigors of daily two-hour practices from her father.

The fact that the family had relocated to Compton was no accident. With its high rate of gang activity, Richard Williams wanted to expose his daughters to the ugly possibilities of life "if they did not work hard and get an education." In this setting, on courts that were riddled with potholes and sometimes missing nets, Serena and Venus cut their teeth on the game of tennis and the requirements for persevering in a tough climate."
The senior Williams was no sharecropper in Louisiana. He is from Shreveport. I live in Shreveport. Do you know the history of where Jesse Owens came from in the early part of the last century and how he could not even even go into the front entrance of a hotel in NYC where he was being honored for his Olympic performances. Have you any idea of the conditions of the world in 1936 and the horrors that was Nazi Germany and what he had to go thru to compete there as a black man? There have been many tennis players that have come from poverty and taught themselves to play with out IMG. Jimmy Connors is one. Taught by his mom on hte public courts of East St. Louis which is just as dangerous as Comptom. The Ecadorean whose name escapes me at the moment was one of the early successful tennis pros and he came from a jungle. Pancho Gonzales was a poor Latino who was also self taught. All of those stories are just as compelling as the Williams sisters. Don't forget the story of Jim Thorpe either who was a poor Indian in the very early 1900's who lead his Indian college team that nobody ever heard of to wins over Notre Dame and Army, won numerous medals in the Olympics in track and field, and was a great pro football and base ball player. He was the greatest athlete of all time if you consider all of his acheivements where he dominated so many sports and he overcame poverty, race, and establishment rules to succeed. The Williams sisters are a great story but to call them the greatest story of all times for playing in only one sport is a huge stretch and could only be made by someone with no real historical background past the last two decades. I won't even go into the Babe DIrksen story but she too came from nowhere and no training to be a success in multiple sports and simply is the greatest women athlete of all time. ,
 
Ketch Said:

"I find you in this thread to be a liar, an enabler and at times flat out dangerously ridiculous in your inability to properly apply a third-grade level of reading comprehension. You've insulted in me in almost every way that you can insult me, so save that weak attempt at a backhanded compliment at the end."

Has he insulted your barber?
Yes, since I am my own barber.;)
 


In feeling obligated to address Tom Herman’s recent hire of former Baylor assistant director of football operations Casey Horny in this week’s column, it’s probably fair to acknowledge that what happened in Waco is personal to me.

As I’ve previously explained in detail, I was born in Waco. I lived there until I was 10 years old. My first college football game was in 1983 at the old Baylor Stadium when I watched the Bears and Aggies play to a 13-13 tie. My wife went to school at Baylor. So did my paternal grandparents. My father is actually a very notable Baylor alum.

When I was nine years old, my mom used to drop me off at Baylor Stadium and I’d buy an end zone ticket for $3 and I’d stay after the final whistle for more than hour collecting Dr. Pepper cups to take home. Two years after moving to Austin in 1988, I still used to pretend that I was Baylor point guard Michael Williams, replaying a 1988 NCAA Tournament loss to Memphis on a sport-court at our apartment complex countless times.

Hell, if you dig through boxes in my home, you’ll still find a James Francis/Robert Blackmon autographed game program from the 1989 Texas/Baylor game at DKR.

I have a lot of colors in my sports DNA, but I probably have as much green and gold in me as anything else. However, when we talk about the rape scandal that occurred under the watch of Art Briles and those that enabled one of the worst scandals in the history of college athletics, the reasons for this situation being supremely personal go beyond any of those truths.

It was less than a year ago, when a friend of one of the women that Baylor left hanging in the wind for years reached out to the Orangebloods staff to alert us about her friend’s story, a story that none of you probably know because the victim wants it that way. After fleeing the state of Texas after crimes were committed against her by one of Briles’ players, she just wanted the whole thing to go away.

Yet, no matter how far away she ran, she couldn’t escape what happened to her. While the rest of the world wanted Baylor to burn to the ground, she found herself sucked back into the vortex of the entire saga because of the details of her case. As it turns out, the monster that abused her became an eventual repeat offender and according to her friend, there was a paper trail in the immediate aftermath of the situation that would have brought the entire program down in a heap of misdeeds.

Yes, Baylor’s investigating firm Pepper Hamilton reached out to her for information on her situation, which I can personally verify after reviewing email exchanges that were turned over to Orangebloods. Meanwhile, a source close to the woman told us that the monster that abused her in Waco was now contacting her in her new state, threatening to harm her if she talked to anyone.

After years of running from her past, the past had caught up to her in a way that crashed her entire world and she had become suicidal. Suddenly, we were in a situation where our involvement in covering this story on a professional level was playing a part in her mental breakdown and it is one of the most haunting feelings I’ve ever experienced in my life. Nothing other than her well-being mattered when push came to shove and we just kind of backed off and let those better-prepared to handle such a complicated situation take over.

More than a year later, I have no idea if this woman is any closer to finding some sort of internal peace, but I rarely go more than a day or two before I’m reminded of her heartache. Even as I write this, my heart is breaking for her.

You’re damn right, this is personal for me and I will never deny it.

This is the story of just one of the victims of the crime ring that existed under Briles. Just imagine for a minute all of the lives that have been altered or destroyed in the middle of all of this. Imagine all of the victims who only became victims because no one in an entire town or school thought so much as to ask a few questions when questions were warranted.

There was just too much inconvenience to the football team for anyone to care.

If we should have learned anything at all from what happened in Waco, it’s that we can’t ever ask enough questions when it comes to stories like this. One of the things Baylor counted on in the cover-up is that we would never care long enough to ever truly demand answers for what was happening behind the scenes.

The victims deserve more than that from us and if that proves to be an inconvenience to football-related thinking, well, too damn bad.



All of this brings us back to the hire of Horny, who was an top-level administration assistant to Briles and his coaching staff during the entirety of the rape scandal. When Phil Bennett was bragging to alums that a soon-to-be-convicted-of-rape pass rusher (Sam Ukwuachu) was going to be on the field in 2015 pending a pesky little rape trial, Horny was Bennett’s top aide.

I can’t tell you that Horny had any role in what transpired in Waco, but I know he was there for all of it and I know that he was all-in on discrediting anyone or anything that tried to shine light on the accountability that his former boss still needs to own to this day.

I can’t tell you whether Horny truly feels remorse for his public support of Briles, although those who know him believe that he most certainly does, but I can tell you that it’s a fact that he only took down those #Truthdontlie Tweets when there was a need to protect future employment.

We know there were other assistants under Briles that were involved in the scandal, but not so much as a single name outside of Briles has ever been given up by the school as it seeks to constantly protect conspirators more than it ever has protected the victims. That translated to evil remaining on the sidelines and behind the scenes for the school this season, despite whatever roles they might have played in what happened … because … well... because of football.

The lack of transparency from Horny’s old employer has put everyone in a position where the only accountability that is going to occur is the accountability that the public and media demand.

Only three schools (Texas, Arizona State and FIU) have dared to come within a 100-foot pole of anyone associated with the scandal and all three schools need to make large public statements about the vetting process that occurred that would allow bringing in anyone that was knee-deep in that scandalous window of time from start to finish. If one or two of the schools completely ignore the responsibilities they have to inform and protect the young women on their campuses, it shouldn’t be a license for the third to lower the bar for accountability.

No offense to anyone involved, but getting a vote of confidence from the liars in Waco that are giving out votes of confidence and protection to everyone on Briles’ staff (deserved or not) isn’t enough. If Horny has done nothing wrong and is worthy of us ignoring all the things we know, then just explain it to everyone as if it’s a matter that deserves to be discussed and not ignored.

For those that believe there’s nothing that Herman could say that to shelter his friend from the hungry wolves, well, just try us. Give us assurances. Explain the official position. Tell us why Horny is a guy for whom you’re willing to stand on the table.

In a moment like this when full transparency is needed, questions need to be asked and then they need to be answered. If comfort exists in making the hire, then it shouldn’t be difficult to discuss it, given the unique circumstances.

Texas needs to ask itself how the people in Waco would have handled the situation and then do the exact opposite.

It’s a matter of showcasing the school’s principles, rather than just talking about them.

Anything less that that, which doesn’t seem to be requesting too much if there’s nothing to hide, is just one more breach upon the souls of the victims whose lives were upended in Waco … a truth that should be personal to all of us that claim to care about what happened.


Let's be honest. It's personal for anyone who knows a sexual assault victim and more so for those of us who have them in our families. It will always be personal because assholes like this Horny morther****er PUBLICLY SHAMED any woman who had the gall to speak out. #truthdontlie my big white ass. He called them all liars and assisted the campaign of misinformation designed to make these woman feel violated even yet again and help those responsible escape without punishment or scrutiny.

Nothing I've said above is conjecture. It's fact. That alone is enough to bar him from ever walking into a room in any capacity as a representative of UT.

NSD will be interesting. I feel like we're going to have a fine team this season on the field. Very interested to see how Herman handles Stoops for round 2. You've got to believe that he's eyeing the hell out of that game.

I agree, TH Sends a message that we are willing to win at all cost, this is his first blunder and he will have to answer for this decision..Perrin and President should be " horse whipped" for supporting this choice..
 
@Ketchum

Here you go.

I think this is what I was talking about. I am 99% positive you came clean on what happened on the radio.I find it quiet interesting how offended you were at the notion that I was lying about this topic. I am sure others on here remember this? AGAIN... not accusing you of theft.. but merely an example of something embarrassing you admitted to.
 
I don't think 99-percent positive means what you think it means.

Please, go away. Leave my thread. I'm all full on what you bring to the table.

I am a paying customer of this site. I am not doing anything to break the rules. I am merely trying to have an intelligent conversation with you. YOU are the one who started calling me names, if I did that to you, I bet you would have banned me. Again, I brought up the topic of you taking money (not saying that you did, but that it was something that was brought up over the interwebs). You WENT off on my calling me names and accusing me to be a liar. I just proved to you that I wasn't wrong, yet you still aren't man enough to admit that I was right, even if only that, that conversation existed.

Again, I find your attitude towards paying customers shocking. I have been a member here a long time, actually longer with a different user account. But you shoo me away because I questioned you on something that ACTUALLY happened? Is this what your site has come too?
 
Herman is the Coach & I trust his decision

Here's the thing if you mess w sh*t you get it on you. THAT doesn't mean that he didnt make mistakes, wasn't a good person in a bad situation & doesn't deserve an opportunity to redeem himself.

Herman HAS addressed the issue EXTENSIVELY & Perrin has made a statement. Herman has been on the radio, in print, & TV & addressed the hire extensively.

EXTENSIVELY!!!
He did one radio interview, but has never addressed the media or issued his own statement.

Agreed, it's bigger than TH, it's about always doing what is right, it's really not that hard..
 
I am merely trying to have an intelligent conversation with you.
That is not what is happening. If that were the case, the conversation would be going quite differently.

I'm not the guy who said this:

"I'm not trying to be a Homer appoligist, but I believe we as a fan base are too quick to want the hammer to fall on Baylor, and I get it."

Or this:

"Look, we have all done stupid shit, even you if I am remembering correctly took some money that was supposed to go to some charity or something to that affect."

Or this:

"If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!"

About the only thing you've actually said correctly is that you are a paying subscriber, although I'm very close to checking to see if that is true based on your trends....
 
I'm not the one that has been contending throughout this thread that the Williams sisters haven't had a significant cultural impact on black women...

I'm not daring anyone to have a contrasting opinion, I'm daring someone to have a good contrasting opinion. I enjoy conversation and discussion, but I can't ignore and let inaccurate positions stand on my watch.;)
You assumed (and even suggested) that I had little familiarity with the black community, which is really the only thing that bothered me. I haven't seen the evidence that you have (despite ample opportunities having spent a lot of time with my black relatives and mentoring kids from Alief,) and so you call my observations inaccurate. On a macroscopic basis, I don't see how American culture has been forever changed like it has with other sports stories. In a subculture within a subculture within a subculture it probably has had an effect, but I don't see how you can equate that to it being the greatest story in American history (or whatever hyperbolic statement you originally made). I think you are as guilty of confirmation bias as those you have accused.
 
You assumed (and even suggested) that I had little familiarity with the black community, which is really the only thing that bothered me. I haven't seen the evidence that you have (despite ample opportunities having spent a lot of time with my black relatives and mentoring kids from Alief,) and so you call my observations inaccurate. On a macroscopic basis, I don't see how American culture has been forever changed like it has with other sports stories. In a subculture within a subculture within a subculture it probably has had an effect, but I don't see how you can equate that to it being the greatest story in American history (or whatever hyperbolic statement you originally made). I think you are as guilty of confirmation bias as those you have accused.
Hang with me. I have to run an errand outside of the house the, but I will be back online in about an hour. You make some interesting points that I would love to address and will address.
 
Ketch how many times are you & Alex going to post on this hire. Everyone knows you don't like it & want him fired but Herman isn't going to do what you & others want & you and others bitching about it every day isn't going to change it.
If someone has real proof that Horny did something wrong at Baylor lets see it. If not lets try to turn the page on it.
 
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Ketch how many times are you & Alex going to post on this hire. Everyone knows you don't like it & want him fired but Herman isn't going to do what you & others want & you and others bitching about it every day isn't going to change it.
If someone has real proof that Horny did something wrong at Baylor lets see it. If not lets try to turn the page on it.

Why would we turn the page? Why not ask questions? As an alum I am troubled - at best - by this hire. Did you read his tweets? Do you agree that Horny supported Coach Briles well after his Briles was fired and well after numerous allegations came out? Does that not cause you some level of - at a minimum - discomfort in the hire?
 
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@sodiumacetate Sorry I'm just now getting to this. Went over to a friend's house and stayed until 2:30 shooting the shit.

You assumed (and even suggested) that I had little familiarity with the black community, which is really the only thing that bothered me. I haven't seen the evidence that you have (despite ample opportunities having spent a lot of time with my black relatives and mentoring kids from Alief,) and so you call my observations inaccurate.
I apologize if I gave off a vibe that you had little familiarity with the black community. It's just that your thoughts on the Williams' sisters impact just didn't sound like my own experience. Wasn't trying to be insulting though, so if I came off that way, I do apologize. I wasn't trying to be ugly.

QUOTE="sodiumacetate, post: 8335613, member: 9046"]On a macroscopic basis, I don't see how American culture has been forever changed like it has with other sports stories. In a subculture within a subculture within a subculture it probably has had an effect, but I don't see how you can equate that to it being the greatest story in American history (or whatever hyperbolic statement you originally made). [/QUOTE]

It's interesting that this turned into an American culture discussion (thanks @CS) because I think their story can still be unlike anything we've truly ever seen in American sports and has so many highs, lows and more extreme highs. If I went bullet point by bullet point of the things that they overcame, the uniqueness of their story and through all of their accomplishments, I think I can make a very good case that their story ranks as high as anyone. That was the original point made and the discussion kind of veered off into a ditch.

QUOTE="sodiumacetate, post: 8335613, member: 9046"]I think you are as guilty of confirmation bias as those you have accused.[/QUOTE]

There probably is some truth to this because while I know stories of Owens and Ali (for example), I wasn't around to completely live them, which works as a bit of a bias against them because I have lived the Williams sister story. If someone wanted to say I'm wrong and that Ali's full story is No.1, that's probably fair. He's kind of a checkmate move.

Therefore, for the sake of concessions, I'll simply say that the Williams sisters may not have any peers when it comes to their full story, and I say that with all due respect to the US hockey team in 1980, but there has to be some concessions made by those disputing their greatness that

a. The totality of their dominance is pretty overwhelming. Their shelf lives have lasted longer than anyone in this conversation, no?
b. The uniqueness of their story and all of the layers to it only adds to the weight of their accomplishments.
 
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