Ketch's 10 Thoughts From the Weekend (What happened in Waco should be personal for all of us...)

[Ketchum]

Do you believe that the liability of universities for crimes of their students should be expanded

That's a complicated question to answer with a simple yes or no.

For instance, I wouldn't hold UT liable for what happened to Huruka Weiser. However, what we're talking about with Baylor is conspiracy to cover up sexual assaults, which led to more sexual assaults... a pattern that existed for at least half a decade. In this case, expansion should certainly exist.

Have you read the book and other articles that I have mentioned, and if so, do you agree with them?

I'm not sure what articles you've mentioned. Re-post them if you don't mind.

Do you believe that sexual assault cases could be better handled by universities or by law enforcement and the criminal justice system?

I think each institution plays its own role, but by and large, but trusted law enforcement best handles these situation. Yet, at times, it's impossible to trust anyone, as evidenced by what happened in Waco.

As one of the organizers of the vigil at Baylor has been very public about what happened to her at Baylor, what efforts did you make to verify the elements of her story?

Her specifically? None. That probably goes beyond some of the scope we were capable of, given the true tasks of our occupation and the limitations they create on something not completely related to our normal duties.

On the other hand, I've spoken with numerous folks that have worked on other elements of the claims. Jessica Luther, for instance.

If the Dear Colleague letter is not binding (per some Dept. of Ed officials) and is not statue or regulation, would it help your readers to understand that in stories that you or others write about it? Especially, when not following the guidance might be asserted as being in violation of federal law.

I'm not sure what you're asking here.

 

[el_taco]

Slander?

I suppose the very bare minimum of expectations is too much for some.

Yes, Slander. It's what your site and your employees have been doing for two weeks. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp? That's the most alarming aspect of this, in not knowing of or creating an environment where rapes occurs and to not report it to police, this is a crime. Yet you and your site continues its cruisade to get him fired, or dismissed.

The only thing I KNOW for sure that he is guilty of is supporting his boss and his team, to which I doubt you know the full and complete backstory to.

Yet you and your employees continue to assert that he was involved in covering up/ or failing to report rape. This, you DO NOT know, yet you presume to attack him over and over on your site for something that you assume to know.

I have been subscribed to your site for a long time and this is the first time I have seen you act this way, and even worse you create and encourage for this environment to happen.

It's frighteningly shocking that YOU and YOUR staff are the ones who don't get it!

Also you seem to be throwing quite the dagger at Herman and Perrin! Since as you put it, you're all in on this, why don't YOU attend the next presser and ask Herman these tough questions?

 

[WI]

That's a complicated question to answer with a simple yes or no.

For instance, I wouldn't hold UT liable for what happened to Huruka Weiser. However, what we're talking about with Baylor is conspiracy to cover up sexual assaults, which led to more sexual assaults... a pattern that existed for at least half a decade. In this case, expansion should certainly exist.



I'm not sure what articles you've mentioned. Re-post them if you don't mind.



I think each institution plays its own role, but by and large, but trusted law enforcement best handles these situation. Yet, at times, it's impossible to trust anyone, as evidenced by what happened in Waco.



Her specifically? None. That probably goes beyond some of the scope we were capable of, given the true tasks of our occupation and the limitations they create on something not completely related to our normal duties.

On the other hand, I've spoken with numerous folks that have worked on other elements of the claims. Jessica Luther, for instance.


I'm not sure what you're asking here.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is easier to understand your perspective on several points.

The most recent book on the general topic is The Campus Rape Frenzy by Stuart Taylor, Jr. and JC Johnson. You many recall that Taylor was with National Journal and appeared often on various news channels. Both authors voted for Obama twice. Taylor and Johnson have written before on how myths about misleading statistics of the number of sexual assaults, including, if I remember correctly the AAU report which including statistics from the University of Texas. The book is well-referenced and can provide other sources of information.

Christiana Hoff Sommers in The Daily Beast (Jan.23, 2015) wrote an article titled "The Media is Making Rape Culture Worse" and it is very interesting, whether you agree with it or not.

Another author of note is Emily Yoffe, who wrote extensively on the allegations at Virginia.

You mentioned Waco, and though you have written on it before, it is hard to understand how the Waco police report in early 2013 was handled (or not handled) and who knew about it and when.

Regarding the 2011 Dear Colleague Letter, Christian Sommer's article goes into detail on that. What a reader of an article often sees is an allegation that some university is violating federal law when it doesn't follow the guidance in the Dear Colleague Letter. There is a conflict of views about that. The point being that the 2011 Letter has caused some uncertainty about what a university is supposed to do, and authors such as Alan Dershowitz point out that guidance is not statute or regulation, as some Dept. of Ed officials have also admitted in Senate testimony. If you google Amy Macintosh and Lamar Alexander, I believe that her testimony can be located. She is by the way, the wife of legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin of CNN. James Lankford has also written a lot about the Dear Colleague letter.

That's a lot for starters. I apologize for the length, but I hope that this provides some useful background material for you and other posters who may be interested.

 

[PaulieD]

That's a complicated question to answer with a simple yes or no.

For instance, I wouldn't hold UT liable for what happened to Huruka Weiser. However, what we're talking about with Baylor is conspiracy to cover up sexual assaults, which led to more sexual assaults... a pattern that existed for at least half a decade. In this case, expansion should certainly exist.



I'm not sure what articles you've mentioned. Re-post them if you don't mind.



I think each institution plays its own role, but by and large, but trusted law enforcement best handles these situation. Yet, at times, it's impossible to trust anyone, as evidenced by what happened in Waco.



Her specifically? None. That probably goes beyond some of the scope we were capable of, given the true tasks of our occupation and the limitations they create on something not completely related to our normal duties.

On the other hand, I've spoken with numerous folks that have worked on other elements of the claims. Jessica Luther, for instance.


I'm not sure what you're asking here.

here's where the compliance piece comes in. I am the Director of our Pharmacy - but if I were to put my hand on, say, a driver, they are protected as much, maybe more, than myself. Those who are the most afraid to come forward should know there is something in place to protect them - and if there isn't then shame on the entity.

 

[Ketchum]

Yes, Slander. It's what your site and your employees have been doing for two weeks. Why is that so difficult for you to grasp?

You haven't listed a single example. If I had actually slandered him, this thread would overrun with people calling me out.

That's the most alarming aspect of this, in not knowing of or creating an environment where rapes occurs and to not report it to police, this is a crime. Yet you and your site continues its cruisade to get him fired, or dismissed.

We are crusading for transparency and accountability.

It's alarming that you wouldn't want the same.

The only thing I KNOW for sure that he is guilty of is supporting his boss and his team, to which I doubt you know the full and complete backstory to.

I don't know the full backstory, either. No one does. That's a big part of the issue.

Yet you and your employees continue to assert that he was involved in covering up/ or failing to report rape. This, you DO NOT know, yet you presume to attack him over and over on your site for something that you assume to know.

Ironically, you just slandered us by misrepresenting (again) what we've actually said.

I have been subscribed to your site for a long time and this is the first time I have seen you act this way, and even worse you create and encourage for this environment to happen.

You've completely misrepresented my actions and words throughout your entire set of comments. I do appreciate you being subscribed for a very long time.

It's frighteningly shocking that YOU and YOUR staff are the ones who don't get it!

I would contend I have a very full grasp of the situation, as it stands.

Also you seem to be throwing quite the dagger at Herman and Perrin! Since as you put it, you're all in on this, why don't YOU attend the next presser and ask Herman these tough questions?

What dagger are you talking about? Is that what you call asking for transparency and accountability?

Frankly, you are tremendously off-base here.

 

[Ketchum]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It is easier to understand your perspective on several points.

The most recent book on the general topic is The Campus Rape Frenzy by Stuart Taylor, Jr. and JC Johnson. You many recall that Taylor was with National Journal and appeared often on various news channels. Both authors voted for Obama twice. Taylor and Johnson have written before on how myths about misleading statistics of the number of sexual assaults, including, if I remember correctly the AAU report which including statistics from the University of Texas. The book is well-referenced and can provide other sources of information.

Christiana Hoff Sommers in The Daily Beast (Jan.23, 2015) wrote an article titled "The Media is Making Rape Culture Worse" and it is very interesting, whether you agree with it or not.

Another author of note is Emily Yoffe, who wrote extensively on the allegations at Virginia.

You mentioned Waco, and though you have written on it before, it is hard to understand how the Waco police report in early 2013 was handled (or not handled) and who knew about it and when.

Regarding the 2011 Dear Colleague Letter, Christian Sommer's article goes into detail on that. What a reader of an article often sees is an allegation that some university is violating federal law when it doesn't follow the guidance in the Dear Colleague Letter. There is a conflict of views about that. The point being that the 2011 Letter has caused some uncertainty about what a university is supposed to do, and authors such as Alan Dershowitz point out that guidance is not statute or regulation, as some Dept. of Ed officials have also admitted in Senate testimony. If you google Amy Macintosh and Lamar Alexander, I believe that her testimony can be located. She is by the way, the wife of legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin of CNN. James Lankford has also written a lot about the Dear Colleague letter.

That's a lot for starters. I apologize for the length, but I hope that this provides some useful background material for you and other posters who may be interested.

Have you read Jessica Luther's book?

 

[el_taco]

You haven't listed a single example. If I had actually slandered him, this thread would overrun with people calling me out.


We are crusading for transparency and accountability.

It's alarming that you wouldn't want the same.


I don't know the full backstory, either. No one does. That's a big part of the issue.


Ironically, you just slandered us by misrepresenting (again) what we've actually said.


You've completely misrepresented my actions and words throughout your entire set of comments. I do appreciate you being subscribed for a very long time.


I would contend I have a very full grasp of the situation, as it stands.


What dagger are you talking about? Is that what you call asking for transparency and accountability?

Frankly, you are tremendously off-base here.

What transparency are you looking for? There was a vetting process by multiple people, he passed. Herman has a long personal relationship with Horny. Do you not trust Texas in their vetting process, again it was done by more than one person? Do you not trust Herman? If you don't, please provide your basis as to why?

Yes, I actually know a little of the backstory.

How am I misrepresenting what you are saying? Please explain? Are you not saying he knows more than what was reported? If so, please provide facts. Are you more upset over his tweets? If so I get it, again there is more backstory to this, evidently you and your staff don't know as much as you claim.. that is there are three sides to every story. But regardless, he was talked to and Texas is moving forward.

Look I'm not saying you or the mods are doing this, but Texas fans are sick and tired of Baylor for more than just the rape... of course no one will admit that and I'm fine with that, but if we are being 'transparent', then let's be.

Hyperbole much on slandering your site... it's in black and white what you guys are saying or inferring about Horny.

The dagger is quite clear. Your asking for transparency because you either 1)know he and Perrin are lying 2)they were incompetent in their vetting process or 3) they are covering up something. Since you are taking such a stand on this, then go before Herman and ask him these tough questions in his next press conference?

Again I get the transparency part on Baylors end, but Texas did their due diligence here based off facts given to them by several people, including our head coach.

 

[WI]

Have you read Jessica Luther's book?

I've read some of her articles. The book is on order, so I should have it mid-week. I'll be interested in what she has to say.

 

[bamahorn1]

Ketch,
First, this was the best article that I have read from you, period. As a father of a beautiful daughter, the very thought of this kind of acute and chronic abuse is beyond my ability to handle. No human being should EVER be raped, and the continued harassment is as worse and horrific. Well done sir.
Being the eternal optimist I still cling to the hope that we will make a sudden move close to or on signing day. Just like unreal expectations of winning Power ball I will stick with this to the bitter end. Either way I am happy we have Coach Herman. Hook Em

Makes me want to go find the "monster" and introduce him to "my little friend". I too have a daughter and am sure that I would going to jail if something like this happened to her...Just sayin

 

[sodiumacetate]

What I know is that a generation of young black women, and black people in general, view the Williams sisters as something more than you seem to believe.

I'm not preaching to you. I'm simply expressing what I believe to know based on two decades of observation.

View embedded media

View embedded media

View embedded media

View embedded media

View embedded media

View embedded media

Just type in Williams sisters into a Twitter search engine and read the comments.

If what you are saying is true, which in my experience is not the case, then why are they only talked about (within the black community) if they win something. If it were having the type of impact you are describing, then all of my black relatives, which are all athletic (some division 1 scholarship athletes) and very much into sports, would have brought it up in conversation. Reality is that I have never once heard any of them talk about them. Tiger on the other hand has been a mainstay in conversation for many of those 20 years, even when he's been out of golf.

The Williams sisters simply cannot transcend Tennis because Tennis is so irrelevant.

 

[bamahorn1]

Rather than tell people what not to write or care about, how about you just ignore the things you want to let go and not read them. I don't care a bit about soccer so I don't read it, but I don't tell Ketchum that he should stop writing about it.

 

[bamahorn1]

Well said. Lol...

 

[Clarence50]

Does the "Period" require any "Alleve" ... What I am awaiting from you is evidence that Horney is involved ... still waiting ...

Horney is "involved " in posting supportive statements publicly after Briles was fired.
That alone precludes him from working at TX.

 

[Clarence50]

. A few emails from a couple of orangebloods posters likely went straight to the delete box

So did my requests from the LHF for donations.

 

[Clarence50]

You raise valid points, and it will be interesting to see the approach that Herman takes.
I and others are just not as upset at the Horny hiring as you and others. Just a difference of opinions, and that is said respectfully.

There are a lot of BU fans that "aren't that upset " about CAB also.
Horney very publicly posted in support of CAB after BU had chosen him to fire him.

 

[Ketchum]

What transparency are you looking for? There was a vetting process by multiple people, he passed. Herman has a long personal relationship with Horny. Do you not trust Texas in their vetting process, again it was done by more than one person? Do you not trust Herman? If you don't, please provide your basis as to why?

Yes, I actually know a little of the backstory.

How am I misrepresenting what you are saying? Please explain? Are you not saying he knows more than what was reported? If so, please provide facts. Are you more upset over his tweets? If so I get it, again there is more backstory to this, evidently you and your staff don't know as much as you claim.. that is there are three sides to every story. But regardless, he was talked to and Texas is moving forward.

Look I'm not saying you or the mods are doing this, but Texas fans are sick and tired of Baylor for more than just the rape... of course no one will admit that and I'm fine with that, but if we are being 'transparent', then let's be.

Hyperbole much on slandering your site... it's in black and white what you guys are saying or inferring about Horny.

The dagger is quite clear. Your asking for transparency because you either 1)know he and Perrin are lying 2)they were incompetent in their vetting process or 3) they are covering up something. Since you are taking such a stand on this, then go before Herman and ask him these tough questions in his next press conference?

Again I get the transparency part on Baylors end, but Texas did their due diligence here based off facts given to them by several people, including our head coach.

You still haven't listed an example of us slandering him.

Transparency has a different meaning to me than it might to you. You seem to be ignoring the way the school has gone out of its way to not be transparent.

 

[Ketchum]

I've read some of her articles. The book is on order, so I should have it mid-week. I'll be interested in what she has to say.

It's the most comprehensive read on the subject you're going to find IMO.

 

[Ketchum]

If what you are saying is true, which in my experience is not the case, then why are they only talked about (within the black community) if they win something. If it were having the type of impact you are describing, then all of my black relatives, which are all athletic (some division 1 scholarship athletes) and very much into sports, would have brought it up in conversation. Reality is that I have never once heard any of them talk about them. Tiger on the other hand has been a mainstay in conversation for many of those 20 years, even when he's been out of golf.

The Williams sisters simply cannot transcend Tennis because Tennis is so irrelevant.

Do you have any relatives that are black women?

 

[Ketchum]

If what you are saying is true, which in my experience is not the case, then why are they only talked about (within the black community) if they win something. If it were having the type of impact you are describing, then all of my black relatives, which are all athletic (some division 1 scholarship athletes) and very much into sports, would have brought it up in conversation. Reality is that I have never once heard any of them talk about them. Tiger on the other hand has been a mainstay in conversation for many of those 20 years, even when he's been out of golf.

The Williams sisters simply cannot transcend Tennis because Tennis is so irrelevant.

@Anwar Richardson - thoughts on this?

 

[JinSOTEX]

So did my requests from the LHF for donations.

You stopped donating when Charlie was here per past posts. Did you start back when Herman was hired, and then stop over an administrative assistant who isnt even a coach?

 

[WI]

It's the most comprehensive read on the subject you're going to find IMO.

Are you going to order the book that I mentioned? It will be interesting to see where their facts and opinions are in agreement and where they diverge. I'll be interested in your thoughts after you've had time to read the book.

 

[PaulieD]

Strong feelings on both sides, which is a good thing. One thing I would like to see is the silence broken; it's a product of the social media times that things accelerate more rapidly than in my younger days.

 

[Clarence50]

You stopped donating when Charlie was here per past posts. Did you start back when Herman was hired, and then stop over an administrative assistant who isnt even a coach?

You stopped donating when Charlie was here per past posts. Did you start back when Herman was hired, and then stop over an administrative assistant who isnt even a coach?

Yep. I had started to do baseball and decided not to over the Horney issue.
You seem to be posting ( in every post ) that because Horney is a lower level staff guy....not a coordinater etc ...that the principle of hiring him changes.
You realize that is a little like saying if you only steal a little......it is ok .....as long as you don't steal a LOT?
Baylor fans seem to think like that. ........Rationalizing principles away if it helps win an extra football game.

 

[Ketchum]

Are you going to order the book that I mentioned? It will be interesting to see where their facts and opinions are in agreement and where they diverge. I'll be interested in your thoughts after you've had time to read the book.

Time to read right now is tough to come by.

 

[Ketchum]

You seem to be posting ( in every post ) that because Horney is a lower level staff guy....not a coordinater etc ...that the principle of hiring him changes.
You realize that is a little like saying if you only steal a little......it is ok .....as long as you don't steal a LOT?

Too many posters are doing this.

"Oh, he's just a special teams assistant. I don't care."

 

[JinSOTEX]

Yep. I had started to do baseball and decided not to over the Horney issue.
You seem to be posting ( in every post ) that because Horney is a lower level staff guy....not a coordinater etc ...that the principle of hiring him changes.
You realize that is a little like saying if you only steal a little......it is ok .....as long as you don't steal a LOT?
Baylor fans seem to think like that. ........Rationalizing principles away if it helps win an extra football game.

I wouldnt have hired him as not worth it, but I also dont assume he's automatically guilty either. If asked Herman would say he firmly believes he wasn't involved. Maybe he will say it this week in his press conference. Who knows. is he right? people clearly fall on different sides here, but we certainly dont know he's wrong. Like I've said.. some guy who is going to sit in a room and watch film just doesnt move the needle much for me. It is what it is. He cant coach, cant recruit, cant be around the team in that capacity, so Im certainly not concerned he would possibly impact Texas in any way in a Baylor type fashion. He certainly doesnt move the needle for me whatsoever that I'm somehow going to care less about this season, think differently of Tom Herman or want to hold back money etc.

 

[Clarence50]

I wouldnt have hired him as not worth it, but I also dont assume he's automatically guilty either. If asked Herman would say he firmly believes he wasn't involved. Maybe he will say it this week in his press conference. Who knows. is he right? people clearly fall on different sides here, but we certainly dont know he's wrong. Like I've said.. some guy who is going to sit in a room and watch film just doesnt move the needle much for me. It is what it is. He cant coach, cant recruit, cant be around the team in that capacity, so Im certainly not concerned he would possibly impact Texas in any way in a Baylor type fashion. He certainly doesnt move the needle for me whatsoever that I'm somehow going to care less about this season, think differently of Tom Herman or want to hold back money etc.

Like I said, your thinking aligns with a lot of Baylor folks in its rationalizing.
We do know that Honrney thinks Briles is a good guy and truth don't lie.
If you think Briles is a good guy, then Horney is your man....at a low level position , ...... but not as a real coach.
Situational ethics ......

 

[el_taco]

You still haven't listed an example of us slandering him.

Transparency has a different meaning to me than it might to you. You seem to be ignoring the way the school has gone out of its way to not be transparent.

Look, honestly like you I imagine, I'm sure am f'in tired of this subject. Howeve.. I'm not trying to be a Homer appoligist, but I believe we as a fan base are too quick to want the hammer to fall on Baylor, and I get it. I have read the articles from you and Alex, I have listened to the Podcast (which I love), but you guys have gone overboard in your criticism of Horny, even referring that since he was close to Bennitt that he knows about the rape and maybe even was involved in the media coverup.

You guys can keep playing the word games and say, look where did I actually type that he was guilty. However, you ARE attempting to damage his reputation, which I think at this point you have succeeded, and yes I know most will laugh at that, but its true.

You are basing all of your facts and assumptions due to Baylors lack of transparency, which I agree is shit. Texas got real information from a few people, if you and others don't want to believe that, then that's your right.... but you're wrong for doing so.

Look, we have all done stupid shit, even you if I am remembering correctly took some money that was supposed to go to some charity or something to that affect.. I apologize if I am (see what I did there)? Does that make you a bad person? Do I have the right to demand that you be fired? Do I have the right to say what jobs you can and can't have? Well if I am basing it on half truths, then yeah maybe. But you would want to be judged on facts, not assumptions. Texas has based their approval based on facts. Period.

Look I appreciate you taking time to respond to my questions, you guys do a good job here, most of the time. But be careful to not create the news, just report it.


If the glove don't fit, you must acquit!

 

[PaperChampion]

I wouldnt have hired him as not worth it, but I also dont assume he's automatically guilty either. If asked Herman would say he firmly believes he wasn't involved. Maybe he will say it this week in his press conference. Who knows. is he right? people clearly fall on different sides here, but we certainly dont know he's wrong. Like I've said.. some guy who is going to sit in a room and watch film just doesnt move the needle much for me. It is what it is. He cant coach, cant recruit, cant be around the team in that capacity, so Im certainly not concerned he would possibly impact Texas in any way in a Baylor type fashion. He certainly doesnt move the needle for me whatsoever that I'm somehow going to care less about this season, think differently of Tom Herman or want to hold back money etc.

And, would if he is around the team? What is the risk, that he encourages players to sexually assault women? Really?? It's that UT looks bad? To whom? Practically no interest in this outside of OB. What a crock this whole issue is.

 

[el_taco]

Too many posters are doing this.

"Oh, he's just a special teams assistant. I don't care."

No, we (raises hand) are not! We are saying stop jumping to conclusions and letting your emotions dictate your thoughts. If you don't have FACTS, that he was guilty of knowing about the rapes, then stay seated! You have NO facts that's he was involved, unless you do, then pretty please for the sake of this discussion, provide your facts that Horny knew what was going on!

Until then you are just trying to rally the lynch mob based on assumptions, which is a sad sad thing.