OT: School Shootings

[TX1972]

The FBI tidbit just seems like a red herring. I am assuming he already had the guns long before he posted things on the internet. All crazy people are crazy in hindsight. Maybe I am wrong and they were all recent purchases, but either way background checks don't work like that and trolling the internet for crazies and detaining them until you can further attest their threat is not a path anyone wants to go down.

He couldn't have legally bought a rifle before age 18. He had been institutionalized. Like the Sutherland Springs shooter, no report to the database. The FBI may have been too busy following Trump.

 

[TX1972]

Those two cases really don't apply to our situation. Israel needs it because they are surrounded by enemies on all sides. They need as many bodies as they can get. Switzerland doesn't really have a standing army. 5% of the military is full time. Its the way the US was before the war of 1812. We had a distrust of standing armies until the British burned down our capital. Anyway the guys that end up being school shooters would be disqualified from service in both places due to the entry requirements.

Actually, the USA had only a 100,000 man army as late as 1939. It was the disarmed populations of Germany, Russia, and Japan that started the war. Maybe human nature has completely changed since 1945. Maybe not. The point of the second amendment is to resist the government. I'll stay armed.

 

[2300 Nueces]

Get the kids and adults off the meds...

http://mobile.wnd.com/2018/02/media-ignoring-1-crucial-factor-in-florida-school-shooting/

Take away the guns and they'll use vehicles.

Edit: anyone on these meds should not be allowed gun ownership as well as the individuals who occupy the same residence. If you get on theses meds, you turn in your stuff.

 

[oldhorn2]

Classroom doors are always locked but again that isn't going to stop anyone from doing harm if they really want to. I am of the opinion that the only thing stopping a bad guy with a gun from doing bad things is a good guy with a gun who is willing and able to engage the bad guy. I know a lot of school districts are now allowing some of their teachers to carry, and I have no doubt that if someone walked into their classroom with a gun, the teachers who are carrying would be willing and prepared to engage the shooter. While there would still most likely be casualties or at least wounded, the number would decline drastically.
I don't want to go to a society where every where turn this is a uniformed officer with a gun, but I would gladly take that if we could stop this behavior.

I believe in the spirit of what you are saying, but the reality does not support it. My son is one of the top firearms instructors for the DPS. Law enforcement has a mandate to discover why armed officers faced with deadly situations are either too slow to react and are disarmed/killed by the bad guys or worse....will not fire or return fire at all.....This is a problem accross the spectrum of law enforcement and seems to be an issue with even among the most experienced ....even the firearms instructors themselves. What the DPS is doing is going unit by unit, police force by police force and conducting very realistic exercizes to identify the slow and non shooters. This is intense stuff.

To think that just because some guy/lady has taken an 8 hour course will be able to defend against or nulify the threat is simply not realistic. Dont get me wrong. I believe the concealed carry folks are very necessary to the public safety, but to depend upon them as the ultimate defense is total folly.

 

[oldschoolcat]

I'm embarrassed to say this, but when I see the pictures of that kid, I just feel sorry for him. He looks scared and clueless.....not a monster like his actions.

If there is a common thread amongst the mass shooters....they aren't NRA members. They're white kids with no friends. Maybe they're all on meds....not sure. But taking Bubba's AR away isn't really focusing on the critical path. IMO.

 

[LongfellowDrew]

I'm embarrassed to say this, but when I see the pictures of that kid, I just feel sorry for him. He looks scared and clueless.....not a monster like his actions.

If there is a common thread amongst the mass shooters....they aren't NRA members. They're white kids with no friends. Maybe they're all on meds....not sure. But taking Bubba's AR away isn't really focusing on the critical path. IMO.

I feel the same way about him that I feel about any thug with a gun period. White, Black, Hispanic or Asian. Pathetic losers that kill innocent people because welp they're f'd up.

 

[oldschoolcat]

I feel the same way about him that I feel about any thug with a gun period. White, Black, Hispanic or Asian. Pathetic losers that kill innocent people because welp they're f'd up.

But the thugs with guns don't do the mass shooting things. They kill indiscriminately, but it's not what gets the headlines.

The school shooters seem to follow a pattern. They have more in common with jihadi's than they do the guy who jacks a convenience store. My guess is they would use nail bombs if they couldn't find the guns. Targeting these people who are a bit mental and keeping the guns away from THEM is the route. I doubt the ACLU would allow that.

 

[TX1972]

You're right if people don't read the gun control topics than they automatically think their guns are going to be taken up.



It probably is more violent but Mexico has bigger issues than gun control. Not saying the innocent are sometimes not killed by cartels but usually cartels are killing other cartel gangs. My family lives in Michoacán I get some stories but most of time if you aren't dealing with cartels or drugs you're not messed with.

Mexico's murder rate was much higher than here long before the cartels. US murder rate is dramatically lower than 30 years ago. John Lott was on FBN just now, states that 98% of mass shootings occur in "gun free" zones.

 

[TX1972]

After a few years, a culture will develop. More responsible citizens lead to a more responsible community. It would take a while, but, like the Swiss, eventually we can phase this out.

That culture still exists, but much diminished. Central europe had shooting clubs chartered as early as 900 AD. When the gun made it from China to europe, the clubs switched from crossbows to guns. A smith in Nuremburg invented rifling about 1520. It was used by the schuetzen members for competition and perhaps hunting. When german colonists arrived in Pennsylvania, at least one smith came with them. The frontiersmen saw the germans shooting things way out. The kentucky rifle is a schuetzen rifle with a smaller bore and a longer barrel. Used powder and lead more economically, probably the first gun to go supersonic. For perhaps 100 years, Texas had hundreds of czech and german shooting clubs. Today, New Braunfels Schuetzen Verein is one of the last survivors.

 

[clob94]

George Carlin said something as a joke a long time ago--

Parents convince their kids they are all special. In reality, only about 10% of kids are special. 60% of them are just average. The other 30%, well, sorry.

 

[TX1972]

George Carlin said something as a joke a long time ago--

Parents convince their kids they are all special. In reality, only about 10% of kids are special. 60% of them are just average. The other 30%, well, sorry.

The societal group with the highest self esteem are jailed felons. Lee Harvey Oswald's momma taught him from an early age that he was special. By the way, the shooter reminds me of a high school classmate: Allen Tippett.

 

[2300 Nueces]

The kid confessed. He should be swinging from a lamp post.

 

[clob94]

The societal group with the highest self esteem are jailed felons. Lee Harvey Oswald's momma taught him from an early age that he was special. By the way, the shooter reminds me of a high school classmate: Allen Tippett.

Wait....... Allen Tippett? From Columbus. How do I know that name?

 

[oldhorn2]

didnt he catch oswald at the theater?

 

[easttx903]

I can fix this. Ya, ya I know, you're already shaking your collective heads and saying "sure you can, buddy".... but hear me out and call me crazy if you want---

In Switzerland, every able bodied male at the age of 18 must enlist in the military for a certain period of time. You're given training, including firearms training. At the end of your service, you can be honorably discharged, and They send you home with the fully automatic rifle that you trained with, and you are made a "reservist". They can call upon you at any moment to defend the homeland from invasion.

In Israel, they do the same thing-- except even the WOMEN must serve. Perfect case in point--- arguably the biggest female star in Hollywood right now is Wonder Woman-- Gal Gadot (sp). Not only is she stunningly gorgeous, but she could kick your a$$. Don't believe me? Before she became a star, Gadot served in the Israeli defense force. She was so talented that Mossaad recruited her to be a HAND TO HAND COMBAT INSTRUCTOR. If you teach Mossaad agents hand to hand combat, you're pretty much a blue ribbon certified bad a$$. Think she knows how to properly handle a gun?

Do you see mass shootings in Switzerland? Everybody has a gun. Do you see them amongst the Israelis? Everybody has access to guns.

It comes down to training. Yes, there will be a few bad apples, but-- why not propose this -

After your senior year of HS, before college, every able bodied student must serve two years. You don't have to do military service-- you can do humanitarian work if you want BUT there are two things that you must do.

1. 4 months of survival training, hand to hand, and firearms training. You learn how to live in the wilderness, start camp fires, hunt, defend yourself etc.
2. After your training, you have to serve on foreign soil. Peace Corp, red cross, Drs without borders, military-- whatever. But you will be sent to a different country to help them in some way. Want to protect mountain gorillas from poachers in the Congo? Here you go. Want to help rebuild houses in Thailand that were destroyed by a tsunami? Let's do it. Want to help vaccinate kids against polio in South Sudan? Have at it.

You'll spend 8 months away from mommy and daddy, you'll learn accountability, you'll be helping humanity, you will learn self reliance as well as serve with teenagers that will be your friends for life. And there's no getting out of it. You better be stuck in a wheelchair with no brain functions at all if you are to get out of this.

You come home at 19 with some experience under your belt, a greater understanding of how fvcking lucky you have it here, the ability to better grasp different cultures, the training to survive in adverse situations, the ability to responsibly handle a firearm, AND (especially for women) the ability to defend yourself from an aggressor.

Now, flame away.

absolutely no

 

[okiehorn]

I can fix this. Ya, ya I know, you're already shaking your collective heads and saying "sure you can, buddy".... but hear me out and call me crazy if you want---

In Switzerland, every able bodied male at the age of 18 must enlist in the military for a certain period of time. You're given training, including firearms training. At the end of your service, you can be honorably discharged, and They send you home with the fully automatic rifle that you trained with, and you are made a "reservist". They can call upon you at any moment to defend the homeland from invasion.

In Israel, they do the same thing-- except even the WOMEN must serve. Perfect case in point--- arguably the biggest female star in Hollywood right now is Wonder Woman-- Gal Gadot (sp). Not only is she stunningly gorgeous, but she could kick your a$$. Don't believe me? Before she became a star, Gadot served in the Israeli defense force. She was so talented that Mossaad recruited her to be a HAND TO HAND COMBAT INSTRUCTOR. If you teach Mossaad agents hand to hand combat, you're pretty much a blue ribbon certified bad a$$. Think she knows how to properly handle a gun?

Do you see mass shootings in Switzerland? Everybody has a gun. Do you see them amongst the Israelis? Everybody has access to guns.

It comes down to training. Yes, there will be a few bad apples, but-- why not propose this -

After your senior year of HS, before college, every able bodied student must serve two years. You don't have to do military service-- you can do humanitarian work if you want BUT there are two things that you must do.

1. 4 months of survival training, hand to hand, and firearms training. You learn how to live in the wilderness, start camp fires, hunt, defend yourself etc.
2. After your training, you have to serve on foreign soil. Peace Corp, red cross, Drs without borders, military-- whatever. But you will be sent to a different country to help them in some way. Want to protect mountain gorillas from poachers in the Congo? Here you go. Want to help rebuild houses in Thailand that were destroyed by a tsunami? Let's do it. Want to help vaccinate kids against polio in South Sudan? Have at it.

You'll spend 8 months away from mommy and daddy, you'll learn accountability, you'll be helping humanity, you will learn self reliance as well as serve with teenagers that will be your friends for life. And there's no getting out of it. You better be stuck in a wheelchair with no brain functions at all if you are to get out of this.

You come home at 19 with some experience under your belt, a greater understanding of how fvcking lucky you have it here, the ability to better grasp different cultures, the training to survive in adverse situations, the ability to responsibly handle a firearm, AND (especially for women) the ability to defend yourself from an aggressor.

Now, flame away.

My flame went out!

 

[easttx903]

@Scholz

In the movies, you see military guys putting suppressors on their hand gun to shoot bad guys. In the history of special operations, you can count on one hand the number of bad guys that have been killed this way. Hand guns with a suppressor is used to shoot the dog. When our SOF guys decide to hit a house that has an HVT (high value target) if that dude has a dog in his yard, the dog will be dispatched this way. After that, when they enter the home, they are using a long weapon. Why? Accuracy, inertial stopping power, difficulty in having the weapon taken from you, and if the worst happens, lots of rounds to put on target. These are considered "hardened targets" though. These guys expect the targets to be armed. They expect a fight.

Schools are not hardened targets. They are soft targets. Using a long weapon against a soft target is, from a tactical stand point, over kill.

Want to see real carnage, replace this kids AR with a Benelli M2 shotgun, a gun that I own and use on everything from dove to deer, buy a 75$ 12 round extension tube and some double ought buck shot, and now you've got a real problem. Ballistics say that one AR round will take down 1 kid, unless you have a "through and through" (bullet goes through one kid and into another). However, 1 blast of buckshot can take down multiple targets if they are huddled together. A crowded room full of targets is literally fish in a barrel. Where do you think the phrase "turkey shoot" cones from?

Unless you are well trained in shooting, the AR platform is a terrible way to conduct close quarters combat. The AR and AK get the bad rep because they are "scary looking" or remind people If military style weapons. If these idiots ever figured this out and switched out their AR for a tactical style shotgun, the poop will really hit the fan. You don't have to be a great shooter, there's huge margin for error and you can hit multiple targets with one trigger pull. Reloading? Yes, I will grant you that reloading a shotty is harder and more time consuming than hitting a mag release button and jamming home another 30 round mag, but I am willing to bet you any amount of money that the hit/miss ratio with an AR in shootings like these is maybe 1-3 or 1-4. That means that at MAX each 30 round mag scores only 10 hits. Of those 10 hits, how many are lethal?
Switch that out with a shotgun and virtually every round has a much higher % chance of scoring a hit- with some rounds scoring multiple hits if targets are huddled.

If you want to get serious about what weapons have the potential to shwack folks in this environment, target tactical shotguns. Trust me, if these clowns had training and knew what they were doing, they'd be doing this.

As someone who spent the greater part of my adult life in the united states army, you are factually incorrect,and hilariously so. The M16 and its variants are the best close quarter rifles in the world.its nearly impossible to miss within 50 meters. my sources for this? 5 deployments to Iraq or afghanistan.

 

[TX1972]

Wait....... Allen Tippett? From Columbus. How do I know that name?

His father, J.D., was the officer killed by Oswald after he killed Kennedy. Allen was already a "thug". Little fellow like this shooter. After his dad was killed, Allen literally couldn't get arrested. Our senior year, he picked up a sidekick and the two of them developed a new hobby, rolling queers at the downtown Y. They tried to roll a guy with a .38. He killed the sidekick and held Allen at gunpoint until the cops came and had to arrest him.

 

[2300 Nueces]

As someone who spent the greater part of my adult life in the united states army, you are factually incorrect,and hilariously so. The M16 and its variants are the best close quarter rifles in the world.its nearly impossible to miss within 50 meters. my sources for this? 5 deployments to Iraq or afghanistan.

So how many people have you killed?

 

[clob94]

And you were, as I said in my post-- "trained". This kid had zero training in how to bang breech clear, or cqc/cqb. I've run with tier 1 and tier 2 guys that work for triple canopy, constellis and the haliburton KBR dudes. I'm a minority owner of security firm that contracts these guys out. The M4/M16 and it variants are no doubt the best for this...... but you have to be trained. I've seen motards and noobs that want to be 3 gun rockstars run through kill houses and miss every target with their AR. Grown men that were weekend warriors. I've also seen top tier guys do things with long guns that I thought were impossible, and no matter how hard I train, I could just never be that good.

Again, this kid had zero training. Zip. I'm willing to be dollars to donuts that he missed targets that he wouldn't have if he were using a shotgun.

As someone who spent the greater part of my adult life in the united states army, you are factually incorrect,and hilariously so. The M16 and its variants are the best close quarter rifles in the world.its nearly impossible to miss within 50 meters. my sources for this? 5 deployments to Iraq or afghanistan.

 

[TX1972]

I've been mulling this over for a while. It seems that schools and parents have decided to wipe out all fighting and "bullying" from boy's lives. I only had daughters, but I had plenty of contact with their male friends. I went to an elementary school where the most common occupation of the dads was rocket engineer. We fought fairly often until we were 16 or so and could really hurt each other. From my dad's stories, we were pretty wimpy. Which I think was true compared to the 20's. Maybe these kids got their anger turned in until they snapped. Maybe if some roughhousing was tolerated, they wouldn't want to shoot up the school.

 

[mm42]

Anyone else think the FBI charged the Russians today to change the subject?

I know they have a really hard job, but this crazy should have been in the funny farm for sure. I feel sorry for the kid, but he can't be allowed to live after what he did. I'd prefer his fellow inmates hand out justice instead of the government.

 

[oldhorn2]

So how many people have you killed?

has to at least qualify as dumbest post of the year.

 

[oldhorn2]

FBI....this outfit does less with more than any outfit in the world....sad really.

 

[2300 Nueces]

has to at least qualify as dumbest post of the year.

If someone is going to be a smart ass then back it up. Answer the question.

 

[oldhorn2]

you ask somebody how many people he has killed?....and you want me to back it up? That is the second dumbest post of the year..

A solder has come back from 5 tours of duty in war zones and you have the disrespect to ask him a question like that? Shame on you. That is pathetic!

ok MM....I appoligize.

 

[2300 Nueces]

you ask somebody how many people he has killed?....and you want me to back it up? That is the second dumbest post of the year..

A solder has come back from 5 tours of duty in war zones and you have the disrespect to ask him a question like that? Shame on you. That is pathetic!

ok MM....I appoligize.

He was rude to clob who was giving a solution. Now I sometimes employ vets and a lot of them have a huge chip on their shoulder and act like I owe them something which I don't. His response reminded me of the typical arrogance I see on a daily basis with these guys. His response was on par with the flippancy that is common in our culture. I have to wonder why someone would re-up 5 times to go to war unless they like the killing. America does not "need" to be in the sandbox. Quite frankly, we should have never gone there. It's been a waste of 7 trillion that could have been spent on such things as school safety. Now take your self rightous ass and go home.

 

[oldhorn2]

strange....I agree with what you said there....especially the last part... I dont think , however that all 5 deployments would have been voluntary and you assume a lot when you diagnose his motives. However.....I do agree we could have found a LOT better use for that 7 trillion.I am now taking my self rightous ass on home now.

 

[clob94]

It's quite ironic that you say this, and here's why--- just this morning I was talking to one of my oldest friends-- he's a naval academy grad that went the marine option and became a recon marine commanding officer. Expeditionary unit officer after that. He said exactly the same thing to me. Said he went to boot camp on a fact finding mission prior to turning in his retirement papers and was appalled at how soft the new recruits were. Excuse after excuse about why they couldn't do this or that. He scooped one kid up and asked him if he'd ever been in a fist fight--' the kid replied to him that the school he went to was a "bully free Zone, SIR!".

Maybe the natural order of things has been unbalanced. If you watch the new Chris Rock comedy routine on netflix that just came out, rock says the same thing.

"I took my daughters to this real expensive private school and the first thing the principal said to me was 'this is a bully free school'. And I'm like 'fvck that, I'm out!' and I left. Kids need bullies when their are younger to toughen them up and so that they learn how to work that sh!t out at an early age. There are a$$holes in this world and the sooner you learn how to deal with them, the better. Ever wonder why we have so many fat kids in America now? No bullies to steal their lunch money!"

Maybe you and Chris Rock are onto something.

I've been mulling this over for a while. It seems that schools and parents have decided to wipe out all fighting and "bullying" from boy's lives. I only had daughters, but I had plenty of contact with their male friends. I went to an elementary school where the most common occupation of the dads was rocket engineer. We fought fairly often until we were 16 or so and could really hurt each other. From my dad's stories, we were pretty wimpy. Which I think was true compared to the 20's. Maybe these kids got their anger turned in until they snapped. Maybe if some roughhousing was tolerated, they wouldn't want to shoot up the school.

 

[RoboCocks21]

Kids have less testosteone then their dad's and keeps getting less and less generation after generation.