I stayed home. Didn't go to the wedding. Also, I turned down an invite to a hold em tournament, recently. Saved my buy in $ and didnt gain weight (usually lose out and then graze the bbq and liquor way too early and long).
Hook em Horns!
I guess everyone here realized COVID is real
- Thread starter LawDocHorn
- Start date
I stayed home. Didn't go to the wedding. Also, I turned down an invite to a hold em tournament, recently. Saved my buy in $ and didnt gain weight (usually lose out and then graze the bbq and liquor way too early and long).
Hook em Horns!
Do those numbers say how many cases kids below 20 contributed to as carriers?
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This is true regarding HCQ: If given early (as when somebody test positive) it works. Cheap and Safe and very Effective. If you are overweight or have underlying health conditions or over 65, get a prescription for it. It works in spite of the ignorance about it.
It's not ignorance. It's orange man hatred. Must maximize body count and run tv add.
Thanks for the update. I'm sorry you missed the wedding--and for anyone trying to have family and friends at their wedding right now--but glad you stayed safe.
Everything is risk/reward. The Covid vaccines sure will be. I'm not sure if I'll want to be first in line for any new vaccine, but I'll definitely take one of them.
Stay safe, everyone. Help others be safe.
Fauci is a freaking fraud POS. Dude doesn’t even believe his own drivel
John Ziegler
@Zigmanfreud
Nothing screams “I’m a fraud!” more than being against masks until your fans demanded them, lying about why you were originally against them, signaling your virtue by needlessly wearing 1 while throwing out 1st pitch (poorly & like a fame whore) & then doing THIS! #FauciTheFraud
John Ziegler
@Zigmanfreud
Nothing screams “I’m a fraud!” more than being against masks until your fans demanded them, lying about why you were originally against them, signaling your virtue by needlessly wearing 1 while throwing out 1st pitch (poorly & like a fame whore) & then doing THIS! #FauciTheFraud
This video is truth. Covid would drastically improve in the contagion, severity of symptoms/suffering, hospitalization rate and death rate if they would simply unleash HCQ and Zinc upon initial positive test regardless of severity of symptoms. Azithromycin only in certain situations.
Hahahahaha!
Dallas County update - Saturday’s record number of reported cases was overstated due to a “technical glitch”. Numbers back down Sunday to 800. And yet the headlines in not the one death on Sunday (with pre-existing condition), not the reduction in cases, not the "technical glitch", but "Dallas County records 605th death"!! They are running out of scare tactics.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-county-reports-605th-covid-19-death-800-new-cases/2413482/?amp
Dallas County update - Saturday’s record number of reported cases was overstated due to a “technical glitch”. Numbers back down Sunday to 800. And yet the headlines in not the one death on Sunday (with pre-existing condition), not the reduction in cases, not the "technical glitch", but "Dallas County records 605th death"!! They are running out of scare tactics.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcdfw.com/news/coronavirus/dallas-county-reports-605th-covid-19-death-800-new-cases/2413482/?amp
I , as a survivor, honestly believe that the Media, CDC, and Dr Fauci are responsible for hundreds if not thousands of deaths due to their fear mongering on HCQ.
There are many who have been fine without HCQ. Clob for instance.
And many more we know. I know of folks who have died despite taking HCQ.
Is your statement on HCQ a belief or founded on something that is based on more data?
It is based on my spending 17 days in the Hospital with Pneumonia and Covid 19, being given two doses of HCQ per day . At two days in Doctors said I was so sick, they didn't think I would make it but HCQ did the trick. So my thinking is based on FACT!!
I am sorry you went through that experience. Must have been horrid for you and your family. Glad you are out of it.
I am not questioning if HCQ helped your recovery or not.
But, objectively, you are one data point. I am sure there are others. I am sure there are others who took it and it did not help.
To approve drugs it does take a fair bit of study before they can "approve it". Clearly, you did not need the CDC's approval for you to take it. Glad you did.
BTW, I am not a fan of the CDC or the WHO or the Pharma industry at all. They are all morally corrupt and care about one thing and one thing alone - $$$$$$$$$$$$$.
The best we can all do it to focus on prevention. It would be stupid for us to relax on prevention under the unproven pretense that there is a cure.
Why is the left so hell bent on discrediting any positive qualities of HCQ? I have no idea who Older Fan is, but he is one of MANY who have seen similar results (including the doctors whose video was banned from Facebook yesterday). I have no idea if HCQ is the magic cure, or if it just worked in certain people due to specific circumstances, or if these people were going to survive anyway and HCQ had no effect - but for crying out loud, why the continuous need to discredit HCQ? Throw it in the hopper with everything else and keep trying! BTW - not accusing you hookem of all I just said - but by and large the left (and media) are going to unprecedented lengths to discredit this one drug, and I can only come to one conclusion - Trump said something positive about HCQ, so it must be bad.
If it just saves one life.
I've heard several people of certain beliefs say that before.
If it just saves one life.
Well, HCQ has just saved one life. That means it works. Does it work for everyone in every situation? Nope.
And guess what else doesn't work for everyone--- flu shots. But a crap ton of people take them. So HCQ works. It saved a life.
For those of you that believe in science. According to randomized control trials hydroxychloroquine works as well as the standard treatment. I don't know why more people aren't talking about remdesivir. Randomized control tirals actually show it helps
IF you want to do a little reading here are the studies.
Boulware DR, Pullen MF, Bangdiwala AS, et al. A randomized trial of hydroxychloroquine as postexposure prophylaxis for Covid-19. N Engl J Med. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa2016638.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014?query=featured_coronavirus
Tang W, Cao Z, Han M, et al. Hydroxychloroquine in patients with mainly mild to moderate coronavirus disease 2019: open label, randomised controlled trial. BMJ 2020;369:m1849-m1849.
This is the big one from the UK.
No clinical benefit from use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised patients with COVID-19. Press release from the chief investigators of the Randomised Evaluation of COVid-19 thERapY (RECOVERY) Trial. June 5, 2020 (https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19. opens in new tab).
‘A total of 1542 patients were randomised to hydroxychloroquine and compared with 3132 patients randomised to usual care alone. There was no significant difference in the primary endpoint of 28-day mortality (25.7% hydroxychloroquine vs. 23.5% usual care; hazard ratio 1.11 [95% confidence interval 0.98-1.26]; p=0.10). There was also no evidence of beneficial effects on hospital stay duration or other outcomes.
For those of you with a stats background pay attention to the confidence interval and p value.
IF you want to do a little reading here are the studies.
Boulware DR, Pullen MF, Bangdiwala AS, et al. A randomized trial of hydroxychloroquine as postexposure prophylaxis for Covid-19. N Engl J Med. DOI: 10.1056/NEJMoa2016638.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014?query=featured_coronavirus
Tang W, Cao Z, Han M, et al. Hydroxychloroquine in patients with mainly mild to moderate coronavirus disease 2019: open label, randomised controlled trial. BMJ 2020;369:m1849-m1849.
This is the big one from the UK.
No clinical benefit from use of hydroxychloroquine in hospitalised patients with COVID-19. Press release from the chief investigators of the Randomised Evaluation of COVid-19 thERapY (RECOVERY) Trial. June 5, 2020 (https://www.recoverytrial.net/news/statement-from-the-chief-investigators-of-the-randomised-evaluation-of-covid-19-therapy-recovery-trial-on-hydroxychloroquine-5-june-2020-no-clinical-benefit-from-use-of-hydroxychloroquine-in-hospitalised-patients-with-covid-19. opens in new tab).
‘A total of 1542 patients were randomised to hydroxychloroquine and compared with 3132 patients randomised to usual care alone. There was no significant difference in the primary endpoint of 28-day mortality (25.7% hydroxychloroquine vs. 23.5% usual care; hazard ratio 1.11 [95% confidence interval 0.98-1.26]; p=0.10). There was also no evidence of beneficial effects on hospital stay duration or other outcomes.
For those of you with a stats background pay attention to the confidence interval and p value.
It's because a dose of HCQ is about $14 and there's enough supply to treat the whole freaking world several times over. Big pharma and their political swamp partners in Congress and DC can't make any money or get rich with HCQ. They prefer several other potential vaccines and therapeutics that are much more expensive. Like everything else you follow the money. They want the most expensive treatments and medications so they can bilk insurance companies and line their pockets. It's also why they were scrambling to build ventilators for all the hospitals. Each time a ventilator was used on a Covid patient it would generate a $40k bill to Medicare or a private insurance carrier. I guarantee you there were thousands of patients put on ventilators unnecessarily just so they could juice up the hospital income.
I am not challenging that this life was saved by HCQ.
There are plenty of idiots out there who are looking for any reason to justify why they do need to wear masks. I just wanted to emphasize that at this time prevention should still be the primary focus.
I will get the Remdesivir out of the way first. It helps along with corticosteroids if you are in the hospital setting-That is it. The biggest takeaway is treating patients in the outpatient setting to prevent the inflammatory phase of the infection. That is what will
1) prevent suffering/save lives, Any viral infection from herpes to influenza is most effective with best outcomes when there is early intervention-most often less severe symptoms and shortens the duration of the infection. Who can sanely make the argument to send people home for quarantine and let the infection get worse and then require hospitalization 7-10 days later when the inflammatory phase sets in resulting in the person's ability to breathe?
2)fraction of the cost: For about $20-$30 dollars, a patient can take HCQ and zinc (I would only recommend Azithromycin in certain cases at this point until better information) as opposed to showing up at the ER and being hospitalized. At that point most all will be given oxygen, inpatient hospitalization and some ventilators and then the >$3,000 treatment with Remdesivir. Does this make sense to anybody? Unbelievably expensive when you can prevent most (yes most) of those hospitalizations in the first place. What would you do for your elderly parents if given the control?
The studies you posted:
1) patients were already hospitalized which means the whole idea of early treatment is bypassed and the inflammatory phase of the disease is in full swing.
2) I didn't happen to see zinc as part of the therapy
3) Your Brazilian study had patients 51 years old +/- 14 years. Well, most at risk of the deaths are >75 years old, then the 2nd at risk of death is >65yo then the 3rd biggest risk obesity. Come on, man.
The Henry Ford Health Center retrospective study had 100% better outcomes for HCQ/Zinc (13% death) vs No therapy (26%)
The Ohio State Board of Pharmacy is “asshoe”. I hope they get the heat they deserve. We have some regulation from the board here inTexas and a few other states, but not to that extent. Btw, does it surprise anybody that in New York it is banned (not by pharmacy or medical board), but by Cuomo’s executive order. Criminalizing it is one way to inflict your will over people and put yourself between the doctor-patient relationship.
The Henry Ford study was not a RCT it was a cohort study and it was of hospitalized patients. They self selected who got what treatment and they left of 236 patients who were in two of the treatment groups who ended up getting worse. Come on man.
People make it sound like there is this big conspiracy against HCL. There are 203 clinical trials going on in the US. 60 are looking at the Prophylaxis properties of HCL. The RCTs are showing it isn't working.
A Randomized Trial of Hydroxychloroquine as Postexposure Prophylaxis for Covid-19
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2016638
We enrolled 821 asymptomatic participants. Overall, 87.6% of the participants (719 of 821) reported a high-risk exposure to a confirmed Covid-19 contact. The incidence of new illness compatible with Covid-19 did not differ significantly between participants receiving hydroxychloroquine (49 of 414 [11.8%]) and those receiving placebo (58 of 407 [14.3%]); the absolute difference was −2.4 percentage points (95% confidence interval, −7.0 to 2.2; P=0.35). Side effects were more common with hydroxychloroquine than with placebo (40.1% vs. 16.8%), but no serious adverse reactions were reported.
Guess science tells us that hydroxychloroquine works as well as a sugar pill on COVID patients.
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Look at it how you choose. If you want to disregard my initial reasoning that is up to you, I have no motivation to convince you otherwise. My reasoning still stands. I will add that the Brazilian Study had around 600 patients compared to over 3000 in the Henry Ford Health Center. HCQ works plain and simple unless you want to wait until the patient is on ventilator in the icu-then, it won’t be effective
The Henry Ford Study
Treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and combination in patients hospitalized with COVID-19
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext
From the limitations of the study
However, our results should be interpreted with some caution and should not be applied to patients treated outside of hospital settings. Our results also require further confirmation in prospective, randomized controlled trials that rigorously evaluate the safety and efficacy of hydroxychloroquine therapy for COVID-19 in hospitalized patients
The UK study was almost 4800 and it was an RCT. When you start to combine the RCTs in a meta analysis you are are over 10000 participants RCT tirals.
Treatment with hydroxychloroquine, azithromycin, and combination in patients hospitalized with COVID-19
https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext
From the limitations of the study
However, our results should be interpreted with some caution and should not be applied to patients treated outside of hospital settings. Our results also require further confirmation in prospective, randomized controlled trials that rigorously evaluate the safety and efficacy of hydroxychloroquine therapy for COVID-19 in hospitalized patients
The UK study was almost 4800 and it was an RCT. When you start to combine the RCTs in a meta analysis you are are over 10000 participants RCT tirals.
Feo
“According to a protocol-based treatment algorithm, among hospitalized patients, use of hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with a significant reduction in-hospital mortality compared to not receiving hydroxychloroquine.”
From your link above:
“According to a protocol-based treatment algorithm, among hospitalized patients, use of hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with a significant reduction in-hospital mortality compared to not receiving hydroxychloroquine.”
Yes but it isn't a RCT. It's and observational cohort study. They didn't have sufficient controls in place. Are you intentionally being obtuse or do you not understand basic research principles?
Okay, cool man. I don't mind going back and forth, but if you want take this conversation in this direction-no thanks. I will just end my input here for what it is worth to anybody.
1) We were discussing treatment, but you interjected a study for post exposure prophylaxis. These are very different and I haven't recommended HCQ in this way. I am only referring to positive cases. Anybody in healthcare knows of the incentives to do double blinded placebo controlled studies. These incentives are for patented brand name drugs. There is no money to be made on old generic drugs, which is why t there is very little funding to do these studies.
2) I would like to see some of these studies with older patients where the risk is highest. Many of these studies will have patients 18yo-60yo. Why bother if that isn't the age groups that are dying. I looked at deaths by age on the CDC website to get the current numbers. Here they are:
Total deaths due to Covid19: 135,579
age >=85 is 44,055
age 75-84 is 35,806
age 65-74 is 28,353
108,214 deaths of people in the US 65 and older make up 79.8% of the deaths due to Covid.
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Que @outhereincali with the ol’ “the number of deaths don’t matter anymore and aren’t a true barometer of the severity of the covid pandemic, we’re now focusing on number of new and second wave cases instead”
Maybe you haven't been paying attention. There are currently 206 RCTs for HCQ registered with the FDA. There is tons of funding For RCTs for HCQ. The reason there are that many trials is that the individual case reports, observational studies and cohort studies starting as early as December were showing some positive results for various different HCQ. Now that we have early large scale RCTs we are seeing that it doesn't really work better than placebo or standard treatment in any condition other than possibly pre-exposure prevention in high risk health care workers.
Have you looked at the UK study. It enrolled 11,000 people across 175 hospitals and was funded by the NHS. They had a vested interest because the NHS is fully funded by government and low cost options would be ideal. They stopped the research becuase it wasn't working.
‘A total of 1542 patients were randomised to hydroxychloroquine and compared with 3132 patients randomised to usual care alone. There was no significant difference in the primary endpoint of 28-day mortality (25.7% hydroxychloroquine vs. 23.5% usual care; hazard ratio 1.11 [95% confidence interval 0.98-1.26]; p=0.10). There was also no evidence of beneficial effects on hospital stay duration or other outcomes.
They set the p- value at .10 instead of .05 and they still didn't get any significant findings after roughly 4700 data points. That is a massive amount of statistical power. Its hard not to have some kind of minimal findings with that many participants so it really means nothing is there. Especially since they couldn't get anything at the .10 level. This is the 4th large scale study with similar results but for some reason you keep pointing to an observational study from Ford that said
"However, our results should be interpreted with some caution and should not be applied to patients treated outside of hospital settings. Our results also require further confirmation in prospective, randomized controlled trials that rigorously evaluate the safety and efficacy of hydroxychloroquine therapy for COVID-19 in hospitalized patients
This is dangerous because its doesn't work and we need to be shifting research into something that does work. Unless of course you have something other that a gut feeling to back up your claim that HCQ does work.
I can't believe there are still people who doesn't think it works, I am living proof at 83 that it does.
