Ketch's 10 Thoughts From The Weekend (Have you heard who I hate?)

Ketchum

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Great point. Apples to oranges. Can’t really compare 17 yo to 20 yo. But Murphy is that special. Look at his body. Grown ass man. And I empathize the Ass part.
I can compare the 17-year old version of Card that existed vs. 17-year old Murphy.
 

RLong68

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But, did it have a better regular season? I don't think it did.

Sure it did. I mean, let's compare their regular seasons:

'10-'11 25-6/13-3 Solo 2nd. There are TWO other Texas hoops teams that won more than 25 regular season games, and NEITHER is the Final Four team. Had B2B December wins AT Greensboro against UNC and AT East Lansing. Snapped a however long win streak of KU's at the Phog. CRUSHED aggy (both times ranked) by a combined 41 points.

'06-'07 22-8/12-4. solo 3rd. Didn't beat KU. Got hammered by aggy in B/CS by 18. No real earth-shattering OOC wins.

How is this even a discussion?
 

RLong68

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I'm not, actually.

He's been a failure so far at Texas, but this was a very good regular season based on the history of the program.

Obviously "very" is subjective, but this regular season, IMO, was "good." Not "very good." If we're being intellectually honest and using a proper timeframe of the the previous two coaches which is where Texas really began to tap into it's basketball potential, this season is good. Not "very good." Thirteen seasons under Penders/Barnes finished with more than 11 conference wins. Four more finished with 11 conference wins.
 

Ketchum

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Sure it did. I mean, let's compare their regular seasons:

'10-'11 25-6/13-3 Solo 2nd. There are TWO other Texas hoops teams that won more than 25 regular season games, and NEITHER is the Final Four team. Had B2B December wins AT Greensboro against UNC and AT East Lansing. Snapped a however long win streak of KU's at the Phog. CRUSHED aggy (both times ranked) by a combined 41 points.

'06-'07 22-8/12-4. solo 3rd. Didn't beat KU. Got hammered by aggy in B/CS by 18. No real earth-shattering OOC wins.

How is this even a discussion?
I punished the season that had an end of the season collapse that cost it the Big 12 title.
 

Ketchum

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Obviously "very" is subjective, but this regular season, IMO, was "good." Not "very good." If we're being intellectually honest and using a proper timeframe of the the previous two coaches which is where Texas really began to tap into it's basketball potential, this season is good. Not "very good." Thirteen seasons under Penders/Barnes finished with more than 11 conference wins. Four more finished with 11 conference wins.
I think conference wins as the deciding dynamic is a bit flimsy because....

a. some years the league is tougher than others. I'd argue Texas finishing third this year is a tougher achievement than Barnes' team winning a weak conference in his first year.

b. Penders' years in a mostly weak SWC makes it hard to compare apples to apples.

I personally prefer the seeding component of comparing the teams because it reveals what the NCAA committee viewed their seasons to be in conjunction with the rest of the nation. It eliminates any murky areas involved with comparing one team that played in a tough league vs. one that didn't.
 
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RLong68

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I think conference wins as the deciding dynamic is a bit flimsy because....

a. some years the league is tougher than others. I'd argue Texas finishing third this year is a tougher achievement than Barnes' team winning a weak conference in his first year.

b. Penders' years in a mostly weak SWC makes it hard to compare apples to apples.

I personally prefer the seeding component of comparing the teams because it reveals what the NCAA committee viewed their seasons to be in conjunction with the rest of the nation. It eliminates any murky areas involved with comparing one team that played in a tough league vs. one that didn't.

Very convenient. But I can see why it needs to be.
 

RLong68

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I punished the season that had an end of the season collapse that cost it the Big 12 title.

Ok. I guess. Still wrong. Literally no objective measure favors the '06-'07 regular season over the '10-11 regular season.
 

longhornlm

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Card must be clearly superior or there is a serious risk of splitting the team along racial lines. Thompson has paid his dues, is known to be incredibly committed to preparing for each game despite knowing he was highly unlikely to see the field and he was lights out when given the opportunity in the Alamo Bowl.
Those who want to use divisiveness to “bring down white culture” have not gone away. They will reappear in opposition to the committee report on TEOT. They will continue to claim racism where there is none. They do not accept that merit should determine outcomes. Naming Card over Thompson will fit their narrative nicely. The outside agitation would surely crescendo.
This single decision could wreck the Sarkisian era at Texas before it gets untracked.
My prediction is that we are going to see both Thompson and Card splitting time until Sark feels the team will accept one or the other as their QB. The one who “loses” very well may enter the transfer portal following the 2021 season.... especially if it is Thompson.
For the love of God, not everything is racial. Please let it stop.
 

toran

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I can compare the 17-year old version of Card that existed vs. 17-year old Murphy.
I believe you could. The most sobering part of your analysis was the comparison of the relative values of West Coast vs. Texas highly-ranked quarterbacks. This may result from what I remember John McKay, among others, bitching about California football back in the late '60s, to wit: there's just too much for kids to do in that state for them to be truly dedicated to football. I don't imagine things have changed that much in the interim.
 

Ketchum

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Ok. I guess. Still wrong. Literally no objective measure favors the '06-'07 regular season over the '10-11 regular season.
Except for that one season is remembered for blowing a conference after starting 11-0 and the other isn't.
 

Ketchum

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I believe you could. The most sobering part of your analysis was the comparison of the relative values of West Coast vs. Texas highly-ranked quarterbacks. This may result from what I remember John McKay, among others, bitching about California football back in the late '60s, to wit: there's just too much for kids to do in that state for them to be truly dedicated to football. I don't imagine things have changed that much in the interim.
I was shocked by the results of the high four-star qbs from Cali. Those guys mostly performed like two stars in college.
 

RLong68

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Except for that one season is remembered for blowing a conference after starting 11-0 and the other isn't.

Not sure you understand the meaning of "objective." But if you want to continue to believe that then be my guest. I can't help a person if they insist on being wrong.
 

muletrain24

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No. 5 - A quick history of UT Hoops...

As the Texas men's basketball team put the finishing touches on a perfect 3-0 week on the road, giving the No.15 team (and rising) team in the country its sixth win in its final eight games on the regular season slate and potentially putting in a position to come away with a No.3 or No.4 seed in the looming NCAA Tournament, I thought a little perspective might be needed.

In the the last 57 years of basketball in Austin, the Longhorns have finished a season ranked 15th or better in both polls a total of... four times.

In those same 57 years of basketball in Austin, the Longhorns have been ranked better than a No.4 seed for the NCAA Tournament a total of... four times.

I'm not telling you to you to be happy with Shaka Smart. I'm not telling you that the standards around here have been met. On top of that, we're not yet in a place where the Longhorns have finished in the Top 15 or netted something better than a four-seed. There's work to be done before this season can be truly called a success.

What I would say is that to this point in this season, this has probably been a better year historically for this program than you'd probably give it credit for.

The 4 times finishing better than 15th in both polls and the 4 times getting higher than a 4 seed didn't just occur over the last 57 years... they occurred during a 6 year stretch of the Rick Barnes era from the '02-'03 season to the '07-'08 season. During that stretch, we went to a Sweet 16, two Elite Eights and a Final Four. We won 13 tournament games for a record of 13-6. We finished 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 1st, 3rd, 1st in conference and had 25+ wins in 5 of the 6 seasons.

Rick showed us what Texas Basketball can be. The funny thing is, I would settle for way way less than what Rick did during that 6 season stretch. Making the tournament more than 50% of the time perhaps? Perhaps a single, solitary tournament win? Perhaps challenging for the conference title just once? In fact, I would absolutely take Rick Barnes's last 5 years at Texas (the ones he got fired for) over Shaka's first 5 seasons at Texas. He had a higher winning percentage (.624), higher conference winning percentage (.545), more NCAA tournament appearances (4) and more NCAA tournament wins (2) if you compare those two 5 year periods.

But to address what I think the point of your post was, be careful not to count your chickens before they hatch. As of your writing last night, Texas was not in the top 15 of both polls (15 in AP and 16 in Coaches). Chances are, they will be today, but they are not yet. Also, a loss to Texas Tech (the team that swept us and whose coach is 8-4 against Shaka) could easily send us right back outside the top 15 in either or both of the polls later this week. Losing to Tech would also likely drop us down to the 4 line... then both of your statements in your post no longer hold up. What if Texas flames out in the first weekend of the tournament? Might want to hold off and let the season play out before we try to compare this Texas team against the best of the Rick Barnes era. If they produce down the stretch, your post will be well taken, but seems pretty risky given Shaka's history in the tournament, save one season over a decade ago. You did hedge your statements, by why make the statements if you have to hedge like that? Why not just wait until we know this team lived up to its billing and its place in Texas basketball history?
 
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RLong68

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Except for that one season is remembered for blowing a conference after starting 11-0 and the other isn't.

Honestly, as a person who very well followed that team significantly more than you, I can firmly say I don't remember that team remotely mainly due to that 9 day stretch of games. My guess is you probably didn't either until you starting looking up records. I remembered that team for the epic wins against the Heels and Sparty. I remember that team for the epic win at the Phog. I remember that team for smashing aggy. I remember that team, unfortunately, for getting hosed in the 2nd round. You wish to pick nits to justify making a statement that is not based on any objective data. So again, if you wish to be wrong then go ahead. I got actual facts on my side.
 

THE NUTT

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@Ketchum i am not going to debate where you have Ewers ranked because you have probably watched more film of the other guys and it’s your rankings but your rating of Ewers as an 8 confuses me. I was like you the first time I watched Ewers where I didn’t think anything stood out, you made a comment about lack of arm strength and people roasted you. I went back and watched him again and realized those throws were 40, 50 60+ yards and he makes them look so effortlessly you don’t even notice. As a sophomore in HS he can already throw father than some pros. And this is his “weak point”? To me accuracy is the most important thing in a QB and even you say he is elite. I have not watched near as much film as you over the years but have watched recruiting since around 1988 with I think it was pigskin preview and I do not recall a QB ever making these throws so effortlessly. Gilbert (which you and I missed on) would be a comparison prior to his shoulder issues. Oddly the video of Malik (who I like a lot, trust Sark and everyone’s eyes who has seen him live) is on a rope but the WR catches the ball at his knees and has to go to the ground to finish the catch. Malik reminds me a bit of Ryan Mallet in HS. Has a gun and loads of potential. Malik might be more accurate.
 

LnghrnObsrvtry

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I completely agree with your take on Shaka and Texas Basketball this year @Ketchum

They have completed the first step in the process by having a good regular season. The next step in the process is obviously what they do in the tournament. If they don't make it to the second weekend, then everyone can complain then but this is absolutely a step in the right direction. Very impressive finish and the best so far for Shaka.
 

Ketchum

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The 4 times finishing better than 15th in both polls and the 4 times getting higher than a 4 seed didn't just occur over the last 57 years... they occurred during a 6 year stretch of the Rick Barnes era from the '02-'03 season to the '07-'08 season. During that stretch, we went to a Sweet 16, two Elite Eights and a Final Four. We won 13 tournament games for a record of 13-6. We finished 2nd, 2nd, 5th, 1st, 3rd, 1st in conference and had 25+ wins in 5 of the 6 seasons.

Rick showed us what Texas Basketball can be. The funny thing is, I would settle for way way less than what Rick did during that 6 season stretch. Making the tournament more than 50% of the time perhaps? Perhaps a single, solitary tournament win? Perhaps challenging for the conference title just once? In fact, I would absolutely take Rick Barnes's last 5 years at Texas (the ones he got fired for) over Shaka's first 5 seasons at Texas. He had a higher winning percentage (.624), higher conference winning percentage (.545), more NCAA tournament appearances (4) and more NCAA tournament wins (2) if you compare those two 5 year periods.

But to address what I think the point of your post was, be careful not to count your chickens before they hatch. As of your writing last night, Texas was not in the top 15 of both polls (15 in AP and 16 in Coaches). Chances are, they will be today, but they are not yet. Also, a loss to Texas Tech (the team that swept us and whose coach is 8-4 against Shaka) could easily send us right back outside the top 15 in either or both of the polls later this week. Losing to Tech would also likely drop us down to the 4 line... then both of your statements in your post no longer hold up. What if Texas flames out in the first weekend of the tournament? Might want to hold off and let the season play out before we try to compare this Texas team against the best of the Rick Barnes era. If they produce down the stretch, your post will be well taken, but seems pretty risky given Shaka's history in the tournament, save one season over a decade ago. You did hedge your statements, by why make the statements if you have to hedge like that? Why not just wait until we know this team lived up to its billing and its place in Texas basketball history?
a. Barnes' best run was pretty incredible and underrated. In the end, his own standards did him in.

b. I don't think I'm counting any chickens before they hatch. I actually make a point to say it.

c. If Texas flames out in the second round of the tournament, it'll be a disappointing season. I've said so all year.

d. Why not wait until we know? Because it feels like we need to define the bar before the event that determines everything takes place. This was a discussion about regular seasons and the potential underrated quality to this season's.

Good stuff. Thanks for taking the time.
 

Ketchum

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Honestly, as a person who very well followed that team significantly more than you, I can firmly say I don't remember that team remotely mainly due to that 9 day stretch of games. My guess is you probably didn't either until you starting looking up records. I remembered that team for the epic wins against the Heels and Sparty. I remember that team for the epic win at the Phog. I remember that team for smashing aggy. I remember that team, unfortunately, for getting hosed in the 2nd round. You wish to pick nits to justify making a statement that is not based on any objective data. So again, if you wish to be wrong then go ahead. I got actual facts on my side.
So, the team climbs to No.3 in the country and has an 11-0 conference start, only to blow the whole thing with three losses in its final five games to the team it beat on the road earlier in the season, and then loses in the second round of the Tournament, but you don't remember that?

Especially since end of the season collapses became a very big theme of the program right about this time.

Especially since all three teams it lost two that destroyed the dreams of an outright conference title were to unranked teams.

Ok.

In a world where the collateral damage created by events don't matter, you're probably right.

I believe I live in a world where the collateral damage always matters.
 
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Ketchum

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Apparently you failed to read the definition when used as adjective. LOL.
giphy.gif
 
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Ketchum

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@Ketchum i am not going to debate where you have Ewers ranked because you have probably watched more film of the other guys and it’s your rankings but your rating of Ewers as an 8 confuses me. I was like you the first time I watched Ewers where I didn’t think anything stood out, you made a comment about lack of arm strength and people roasted you. I went back and watched him again and realized those throws were 40, 50 60+ yards and he makes them look so effortlessly you don’t even notice. As a sophomore in HS he can already throw father than some pros. And this is his “weak point”? To me accuracy is the most important thing in a QB and even you say he is elite. I have not watched near as much film as you over the years but have watched recruiting since around 1988 with I think it was pigskin preview and I do not recall a QB ever making these throws so effortlessly. Gilbert (which you and I missed on) would be a comparison prior to his shoulder issues. Oddly the video of Malik (who I like a lot, trust Sark and everyone’s eyes who has seen him live) is on a rope but the WR catches the ball at his knees and has to go to the ground to finish the catch. Malik reminds me a bit of Ryan Mallet in HS. Has a gun and loads of potential. Malik might be more accurate.
An 8 is not an insult. Just as an FYI.
 

RLong68

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So, the team climbs to No.3 in the country and has an 11-0 conference start, only to blow the whole thing with three losses in its final five games to the team it beat on the road earlier in the season, and then loses in the second round of the Tournament, but you don't remember that?

Especially since end of the season collapses became a very big theme of the program right about this time.

Ok.

In a world where the collateral damage created by events don't matter, you're probably right.

I believe I live in a world where the collateral damage always matters.

LOL. Love the moving goalposts in that now you want to ding that team for a hose job loss in round 2. I mean, I thought we were talking regular season? Guess we aren't since you need SOMETHING to make your argument look halfway smart. BTW, what part of my mentioning of the 2nd round hose job against AZ did you not understand? BTW, I guess we just wipe away the 2nd round blowout loss by the '06-'07 team? Look, you made a rather dumb statement that the '06-'07 team had a better regular season than the '10-11 team in the face of literally zero objective data to support it. Don't double down on stupid. I didn't make up the objective data. I'm simply using it. You should try it.
 

tzrider

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I didn’t see huge difference in those films of Card, and what I saw from Thompson in the Alamo bowl. Except Casey was playing against a college defense. I will stick with Casey until we actually see Card do something in a game.
 

Texas1999

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2. 2002-03 (26-7, 13-3, 2nd place in Big 12, three wins over Top 10 teams and seeded 1st in the NCAA Tournament)

Sometimes context means everything and you can make a case that the Big 12 has never been stronger in any given year than this one when Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas were all ranked in the top six all year. This game included a win over Oklahoma on Hollis Price's Senior Day, which still ranks as one of the most memorable regular-season conference wins of all-time.
Sorry this has to be the best team in Texas history and how can you leave the 89/90 team off the top 10 altogether

EDIT: I'll take the L on the 89/90 team as I re-read and realized they aren't in the last quarter of century...damn I'm feeling old now.
 

Ketchum

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LOL. Love the moving goalposts in that now you want to ding that team for a hose job loss in round 2.
I'm dinging them for the end of the season collapse. I mentioned the Tournament outcome because you brought it up.

I love the trivial things we debate.
 

Ketchum

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I didn’t see huge difference in those films of Card, and what I saw from Thompson in the Alamo bowl. Except Casey was playing against a college defense. I will stick with Casey until we actually see Card do something in a game.
Do the opinions of those that watched both every day last season matter, since both were playing against college defenses every day?
 

Ketchum

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Sorry this has to be the best team in Texas history and how can you leave the 89/90 team off the top 10 altogether

EDIT: I'll take the L on the 89/90 team as I re-read and realized they aren't in the last quarter of century...damn I'm feeling old now.
I wasn't ranking these teams with the NCAA Tournament results in mind.
 

Texas1999

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I wasn't ranking these teams with the NCAA Tournament results in mind.
I get it and I won't hold it against you I just disagree. I'll agree they are definitely 1 and 2 probably in the history of the program not even just the last 25 years. I just remember the ride in 2002/2003 and knew from the get go it was ending in New Orleans however the 2007/2008 team we knew was good but I remember always wondering how good they were.

Little personal note, my now 20 year old son loved him some DJ Augustine. For Chanukah in 2007 bought him a white authentic DJ Augustine jersey. He wore that jersey to NRG proudly and stood there with his horns held high as could be until the final buzzer. Poor kid was devastated. He still has that jersey in his closet and one of his favorite possessions.
 

msc91

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Excited to have the choice of Thompson or Card at qb but...

Is there any concern about Card being ready when you look at his body?

I thought he looked extremely small after a full year in a college program. Henry Rowengartner-esque. Of course, that entire observation is made from watching a small portion of a bowl game on TV. And my skills in this age/height/weight guessing arena are questionable at best. At my age, I think every girl/woman drinking in a bar is too young to be there
 

Ketchum

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I get it and I won't hold it against you I just disagree. I'll agree they are definitely 1 and 2 probably in the history of the program not even just the last 25 years. I just remember the ride in 2002/2003 and knew from the get go it was ending in New Orleans however the 2007/2008 team we knew was good but I remember always wondering how good they were.

Little personal note, my now 20 year old son loved him some DJ Augustine. For Chanukah in 2007 bought him a white authentic DJ Augustine jersey. He wore that jersey to NRG proudly and stood there with his horns held high as could be until the final buzzer. Poor kid was devastated. He still has that jersey in his closet and one of his favorite possessions.
You might be right. The 2002-03 season was a joyride. I wouldn't be mad at anyone that flipped'em.
 
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Ketchum

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Excited to have the choice of Thompson or Card at qb but...

Is there any concern about Card being ready when you look at his body?

I thought he looked extremely small after a full year in a college program. Henry Rowengartner-esque. Of course, that entire observation is made from watching a small portion of a bowl game on TV. And my skills in this age/height/weight guessing arena are questionable at best. At my age, I think every girl/woman drinking in a bar is too young to be there
His body reminds me of Aaron Rodgers.