Ketch's 10 Thoughts From the Weekend (Let's just talk about it 2.0...)

[Ketchum]

Sorry, but this a very bad take. Any social activist with half a brain, will tell you there have been GIGANTIC strides since 1979, 1989 and even 1999.

If we want to keep the talk to just about campus, we can. The athletic scholarships available to minorities have changed exponentially in the past 20-30 years. Look at the racial makeup of some of those early 90’s teams vs now. Look at the facilities available, level of tutoring, level of living conditions, level of nutritional science available, etc. Do not buy this argument.

What gigantic strides have been taken since 1999?

 

[Ketchum]

Come on @Ketchum, they did more than "say how they feel". They demanded that the Eyes of Texas be "replaced". Done minimized their demands. That is a disservice to them.

Well, that's part of saying how they feel.

I don't think it would have even come to this if they hadn't previously been in a position were they have felt forced to participate.

 

[Whiterock H0rn]

Just curious... have you never noticed that a number of black athletes aren't very enthusiastic about the song?

I know the question wasn't posed to me, but I honestly had no idea this was an issue until this past week. Although I am a UT grad, it is clear from reading many of the comments over the last few days that I am not nearly as emotionally invested in the song as many (probably most). Nevertheless, I don't find the song racist despite knowing it was performed in a minstrel show years ago (and I realize I'm not the arbiter of what is racist). That said, I have a hard time imagining a scenario where continuing to use the song at events is anything other than divisive. How can we celebrate with The Eyes while an important segment of our community is outwardly offended/bothered by the song and not participating in that celebration? Put another way, if you are in the camp (this comment about "camps" in itself highlights the problem - we shouldn't have "camps" in our community) that is offended or bothered by The Eyes, how do you feel about looking in the stands after a game and seeing your peers celebrating with a song that you find offensive? Or seeing some of your teammates sing The Eyes? I don't know if including the song in the list of demands is a bargaining ploy to gain leverage in dealing with the other issues or if there is a genuine desire to impact how the song is used (if at all). Either way, I fear the damage has been done and we can't put this cow back in the barn. Strange days.

 

[Dugg]

I'm with you with regards to the mental approach that needs to be taken.

It would be refreshing if it were simply a mental reset and acknowledgement but in light of today’s culture, it would be naive to see it anything but gone.

 

[Ketchum]

No, what a lot of us are saying is just because you think something is racist doesn't in fact mean its racist.

No, that's pretty much what I said.

 

[Baguette]

So because MLK was shot by a hateful maniac, his message is invalidated?

I'm not denying racism exists. And not just the kind that shoots an MLK. The worst is the "death of a thousand cuts" kind that happens every day when young black men - in particular - are treated differently than their peers. I get it. And I'm very open to looking for constructive ways to address the problem.

My point is that this looks to me like the wrong fight. It's stirring up division and hostility where none really existed before. And it's doing so for a purely symbolic victory. Nothing of substance will be accomplished, even by a complete victory. More to the point, I believe that resentment and anger only lead to more resentment and anger. We are trapped in an adversarial cycle and yes, I do believe Dr. King was right about the only way out being through unity love and nonviolence.

What I find richly ironic, though, is that you don't feel that "anyone has to concede an inch" on your side while you are demanding (yet again) for everyone who disagrees with you to capitulate completely.

Dogma is part of the far left doctrine. If you can't win hearts & minds through thoughtful debate, logic & facts, then by all means, ram it down their throats by whipping out the old proverbial 'race card.'

 

[Ketchum]

I know the question wasn't posed to me, but I honestly had no idea this was an issue until this past week. Although I am a UT grad, it is clear from reading many of the comments over the last few days that I am not nearly as emotionally invested in the song as many (probably most). Nevertheless, I don't find the song racist despite knowing it was performed in a minstrel show years ago (and I realize I'm not the arbiter of what is racist). That said, I have a hard time imagining a scenario where continuing to use the song at events is anything other than divisive. How can we celebrate with The Eyes while an important segment of our community is outwardly offended/bothered by the song and not participating in that celebration? Put another way, if you are in the camp (this comment about "camps" in itself highlights the problem - we shouldn't have "camps" in our community) that is offended or bothered by The Eyes, how do you feel about looking in the stands after a game and seeing your peers celebrating with a song that you find offensive? Or seeing some of your teammates sing The Eyes? I don't know if including the song in the list of demands is a bargaining ploy to gain leverage in dealing with the other issues or if there is a genuine desire to impact how the song is used (if at all). Either way, I fear the damage has been done and we can't put this cow back in the barn. Strange days.

I'd give this post two likes if I could.

 

[Ketchum]

Concerning Coach Royal - what about the calls that he was racist and his name should be removed from the stadium? Apologies if already covered, I haven’t read through all 11 pages.

I haven't seen much of that, other than to know the charges of racism is something he used to deal with.

 

[Ignatius J Reilly]

I haven't seen much of that, other than to know the charges of racism is something he used to deal with.

UT football and the school was for whites only for a long time. It seeped racism from every pore. In fact, for probably most of it’s existence.

Why not just throw everything else and start anew? If we take this current situation to it’s logical end, that we are washing away the racism of the past so everyone feels comfortable, isn’t that what has to happen?

 

[jessed50]

What gigantic strides have been taken since 1999?

For one, the fact that this conversation is even happening. What do you think would have happened in 1999 if the players did the same thing? We both see some of the subtle racist remarks being made now, there would have been zero subtlety back then.

For the first time ever, at least half the fan base wants to hear what these players are saying, and try to empathize. Please don’t pretend they would have had a receptive platform back then. Change finally happens when people are willing to listen. The ability to capitalize on people willing to listen, could be bigger than desegregation. I say this because desegregation was forced, and people willing to listen is voluntary. Only through a voluntary desire to help/change will racial inequities begin to lessen.

 

[Ketchum]

UT football and the school was for whites only for a long time. It seeped racism from every pore. In fact, for probably most of it’s existence.

Why not just throw everything else and start anew? If we take this current situation to it’s logical end, that we are washing away the racism of the past so everyone feels comfortable, isn’t that what has to happen?

what HAS to happen is of a murky nature, mostly because of so little actually happening for so much time.

 

[Dugg]

I haven't seen much of that, other than to know the charges of racism is something he used to deal with.

Isn't that enough in this society?

He was a coach who could have done more but didn't. The case would easily be made that he either explicitly or implicitly denied opportunities to AAs. All it takes if for the perception to take hold in a minor capacity.
I jokingly said previously that he was slated for the Round 4 purge, but is it really that unbelievable given the now tarnished Eyes.

 

[Ketchum]

For one, the fact that this conversation is even happening.

you think them merely expressing themselves registers are "gigantic"?

 

[liturgical orange]

I'm curious that not one person in 300+ replies has made one comment about this Royal quote.

I find it significant.

“See, back when I was coaching, you didn’t see black families coming to the game. You didn’t see black families wearing orange and white. You didn’t see little kids of the family with little Texas sweaters on. You just didn’t see it. You didn’t see blacks at the game. Well, obviously that’s all changed. It’s integrated and it’s a thing of the past, thank goodness. Those kids have families, and just like everyone else, their families show up to the game, and they show up in support. And they’re ‘hookin’em, Horns.’ That thing is disappearing about the University of Texas. Time has taken care of it.”

When I read his quote I thought it a good quote it was OK. However, I do remember an article in Sports Illustrated in the early 70's about the racial integration of Texas Football. I remember a quote from DKR in it about how it wasn't that they were doing anything against them its just that they weren't doing anything for them. Something along those lines. It would be interesting to revisit that article again if any one could get access.

 

[jessed50]

you think them merely expressing themselves registers are "gigantic"?

You don’t think them expressing themselves and somebody listening isn’t gigantic?

You obviously don’t understand what it means when minority groups state that they don’t have a powerful enough voice to force real changes.

 

[Ignatius J Reilly]

what HAS to happen is of a murky nature, mostly because of so little actually happening for so much time.

That is a non-answer though. What is the endgame here? For everyone to feel comfortable? We will be chasing the sun until nothing is left then, right? Is there some line there that is off-limits, or are we just rolling into the abyss until this thing stops at an undefined point?

 

[Cure4BizCancer]

I think I could argue that the best thing Texas could do for recruiting is to be super proactive and a leader on this front.

I don't see this as a distraction in the sense that some others do.

I see this is an opportunity. Several of them, actually.

The players have come together in solidary to state that they won't support recruiting until their demands are met. To understand your point, you are saying that by refusing to support any recruiting efforts going forward, that this will actually supercharge recruiting efforts by the coaches?

It just seems like the experience recruits will get at Alabama, LSU, Ohio State and Clemson will be perceived differently by prospective recruits visiting (and communicating) than with Texas. The recruits at other schools will be dealing with other young men going through the same challenges when they visit and in their communications. It would seem like the connection they get with their like minded peers at those schools will be more beneficial to recruiting, than being told that Texas is not the place they should choose from the silence and lack of contact they get when they visit Texas. It would just seem hard to present an atmosphere of teamwork and family, when the family is refusing to talk to them.

I really hope you are correct. I just don't see it. Also, I wasn't even talking about recruiting. That will negatively affect future seasons. I am worried about 2020. History is pretty clear on what happens to a college football team when it diverts its focus away from football.

Also, at Missou, there was a spike in the number of player academic failures and drop-outs after their challenge. We may see this soon at Texas. Being a member of an NCAA P5 competitive sports team is extremely demanding on the players. You appear to see these demands as the university stealing from them, but the players won't meet their dreams of the NFL or personal development without working together as a team. I can't imagine being successful at that gauntlet with what they are going through.

 

[Ketchum]

When I read his quote I thought it a good quote it was OK. However, I do remember an article in Sports Illustrated in the early 70's about the racial integration of Texas Football. I remember a quote from DKR in it about how it wasn't that they were doing anything against them its just that they weren't doing anything for them. Something along those lines. It would be interesting to revisit that article again if any one could get access.

I'd love to see that.

 

[hookem62]

These broad social issues are very important in real life. Unfortunately real life is infiltrating my favorite outlet to the point that I am slowly losing interest.

 

[Ketchum]

You don’t think them expressing themselves and somebody listening isn’t gigantic?

You obviously don’t understand what it means when minority groups state that they don’t have a powerful enough voice to force real changes.

I think it's a hell of a thing to make that claim that the last 20 years have been full of gigantic leaps because the kids made a statement that started a tsunami of reaction a mere three days ago.

 

[Ignatius J Reilly]

I think it's a hell of a thing to make that claim that the last 20 years have been full of gigantic leaps because the kids made a statement that started a tsunami of reaction a mere three days ago.

Is there a metric we can use to look back on in 10 years and say whether this move had a positive impact?

 

[txfight]

Perhaps the question is, are you willing to let black people tell you what is offensive to them instead of having white people define it for them?

Isn't that the root if this discussion?

Black people are telling us that they view something as racist and most of the conversation has been, "nah, you guys don't know what you're talking about."

The problem with this statement (and entire argument) is that "black people" are not unified in their view of this song. By the way, white people aren't unified in all their thoughts either. Neither are half white, half black people, neither are Hispanic people, Native American people...

SOME black people are telling is that they view some things as racist, some flatly think the song is just a school song.

There are no absolutes. Someone is going to be upset any way this gets sliced.

 

[Random Black]

People getting all worked up over one damn song....

 

[Ketchum]

Is there a metric we can use to look back on in 10 years and say whether this move had a positive impact?

I dunno... what do you think? Surely, the minds of OB can think of something.

 

[Ketchum]

The problem with this statement (and entire argument) is that "black people" are not unified in their view of this song. By the way, white people aren't unified in all their thoughts either. Neither are half white, half black people, neither are Hispanic people, Native American people...

SOME black people are telling is that they view some things as racist, some flatly think the song is just a school song.

There are no absolutes. Someone is going to be upset any way this gets sliced.

That's 100-percent fair.

 

[cruelbutfair]

Well, that's part of saying how they feel.

I don't think it would have even come to this if they hadn't previously been in a position were they have felt forced to participate.

"Forced to participate"? Ummm, no one forced them to go to UT.
The Eyes of Texas is not racist.
Saying it makes someone uncomfortable doesn't make it racist.
It wasn't racist when it was written, and it isn't racist now.
Society was certainly SIGNIFICANTLY more racist when it was written. The fact it was written in a racist society doesn't make it racist.
It seems the Eyes removal demand was added at the end of the list as a dagger to the fans of UT.
The removal of the Eyes of Texas will cause much more discord than any other of the athletes demands (of which all of the rest I agree with).
I think it is a fair question to ask what is the point of college athletics. If playing for UT is such a negative experience for these athletes, why perpetuate it? Just shut it down.

 

[echeese]

​

No. 4 - About The Eyes ...


Here's what I've been told we should probably expect ...

* The "Eyes of Texas" is played before games when the players are still inside the locker room, which means that it can and is still expected to be performed.

* That leaves the situation in the post-game. The first thing that players will immediately be told is that they will not be forced to participate in the song if they don't want to.

For instance....

Instead of playing "The Eyes of Texas” after games with the full team and fans, what if the band plays "Texas Fight"?

As one former player currently in the NFL told me on Sunday afternoon, "I love that. That's the song that gets everyone hyped. Whoever came up with that idea needs a raise."

Playing Texas Fight after a game would seem to be a workable compromise.

I wonder if someone will ask Dr Moore or the players. Even if 100% of their demands are met, outside of more inner city work, how is anyone's life better?

And since you and @Anwar Richardson have access to the players, one huge impact they can make without spending anything but their time is mentoring at risk youth via the Boys & Girls club of Austin. Weekly not a once a year photo op.

And I've got PLENTY of other easy suggestions for them. We will see how committed they are to this.

It's hard to steal 2nd with one foot firmly planted on 1st.

Good stuff @Ketchum but i'm just a Libtard Ketch apologist.

The 1st step to recovery is admitting your problem.

 

[tjhorn92]

What gigantic strides have been taken since 1999?

I would say America electing a black president has to rank pretty high up on the list of gigantic strides. But maybe that's just me.

 

[crosthwait]

“We all might want to play the "that stuff happened over 100 years ago" card, but you know what happened a little more than 150 years ago?”

100-150 years ago? I’m glad my parents and my grandparents and great grandparents didn’t have slaves but were doctors and often treated blacks and took gifts as payment. Not sure why I’m considered a racist, is itcause I’m white?

Many of this care for this site too. I don’t wish that bad scenario upon you or any of the mods, no matter how much y’all make us want to punch you in the face sometimes.

The question was more so to point out that these current matters go beyond the business. Glad you support our student athletes.

The Politically Correct narrative has cost many a job to those that don't bend to it or apologize for it, how is this any different? Like attacking the Tenured Prof at UCLA that didn't believe changing the date of a test, so students could go protest, the right course of action. Doesn't mean he's not sensitive to whats happening but believes it's not fair to have it disrupt his class. I would say 99% of the people not apologizing aren't racist, they just see the bigger picture and I think they believe the Marxist teachings in our schools since the beginning of the 20th century are gaining a foothold and they fear for our Democracy.

 

[Ketchum]

"Forced to participate"? Ummm, no one forced them to go to UT.
The Eyes of Texas is not racist.
Saying it makes someone uncomfortable doesn't make it racist.
It wasn't racist when it was written, and it isn't racist now.
Society was certainly SIGNIFICANTLY more racist when it was written. The fact it was written in a racist society doesn't make it racist.
It seems the Eyes removal demand was added at the end of the list as a dagger to the fans of UT.
The removal of the Eyes of Texas will cause much more discord than any other of the athletes demands (of which all of the rest I agree with).
I think it is a fair question to ask what is the point of college athletics. If playing for UT is such a negative experience for these athletes, why perpetuate it? Just shut it down.

Why didn't you mention the words minstrel show at any point in your post?