Ketch's 10 Thoughts From the Weekend (If I never left, can I really come back?)

[TD TX TD VY]

Ketch, I enjoy your website.

The information and insight your service provides, is well worth the monthly dues. There's no question - OB is a great value.

With that said, there seems to be something strange about Anwar's reporting; even more peculiar is the manner in which you continuously defend his work.

First, let us set aside the fact that his basic writing skills are lacking. I'm fairly certain no one would argue that point. There are times, reading his pieces are downright painful. Please, hire an editor, if only for his work.

Still, what I believe rubs some the wrong way, is his apparent constant need to stir the pot; some might call this a desire for drama. While I understand - "stirring the pot," at times is part of the job, he seems to enjoy it more than any other OB reporter. Simply put - drama follows him.

Personally, I've never questioned his sources or your knowledge of who his sources are. What I question is the manner in which he relays the information those sources provide. As a reporter in my own right, I know that a major part of the job is discernment. Anwar just seems to struggle in this area.

It's one thing thing to run with insider info all the way to print; it's another to print inaccurate information. Case in point - "It's Swoopes and it's not even close." Not only was that wrong, it was grossly wrong and it brought a "look at me" type of dynamic to the reporting; which as you know - is the exact opposite of what reporting is supposed to be.

I don't doubt Anwar was informed Swoopes was well ahead of Shane. The problem is - he had the benefit of already seeing what Swoopes was capable of for quite some time. Anwar should have the ability to take that information, sit down at his typewriter and "discern" whether or not it's worthy of passing along, and how to convey that message to his readers. Especially given the fact that it certainly wasn't "even close" - in the exact opposite direction. That's discernment. If he'd only reported "Swoopes Takes the Lead" that would still be newsworthy, with less of a "look at me" feel to it.

Unfortunately, Anwar hasn't seem to grow from that journalistic mistake and he continues to relay information in similar fashion. You can't fault OB readers who remain wary of his reports.

I still enjoy his work from time to time. He's not my favorite writer on this site, and he desperately needs an editor. Still, he's good for the occasional entertaining read.

My overall point is - for you to label him as a "world class reporter" is embarrassing for you, and insulting to your readers. The reasons are too many to list, though I touched on a few above; but I have to tell you - I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

"World class reporter?" Really?

Decent reporter? Maybe. Good hire for you? I suppose so.

But your claim is downright silly.

I'll wrap this up by providing two facts:

1. Anwar is not a world class reporter.
2. If he were, he would not be working at OB.

As I stated above - I do enjoy this site. I find it highly entertaining and it's a good value.

But "world class..." come on.

Way too many hyphens. Improper usage of semicolons. You need an editor.

 

[Gus McCrea]

. I'm in Vail. Carry on.

GM

 

[HookemChargers]

Had to get it posted, so I can concentrate on what is important!

Name Pos Stars
Al'Vonte Woodard WR 4*
Ayodele Adeoye LB 4*
B.J. Foster DB 4*
Caden Sterns DB 4*
Cameron Rising QB 4*
Casey Thompson QB 4*
DeMarvion Overshown LB 4*
Keaontay Ingram RB 4*
Byron Hobbs LB 3*
Cameron Dicker K 3*
Reese Moore OL 3*
Rondale Moore WR/RB 3*
WR: Brennan Eagles (70%)
WR: Tommy Bush (35%)
TE: Malcolm Epps (65%)
TE: Luke Ford (30%)
OL: Rafiti Ghirmai (60%)
OL: Cameron Wire (40%)
DE: Joseph Ossai (40%)
DE: Max Wright (N/A)
DT: Keondre Coburn (75%)
DT: Bobby Brown (40%)
DB: D'Shawn Jamison (75%)
DB: Jalen Green (65%)

DB 4 FOUR STARS
WR 3 FOUR STARS 1 3 STAR
QB 2 4 STARS
We still needed another 4 or 5 star RB and we needed to have a top DE and OL.
I could see on the OL and DL the Juco kids might be a better option.
They could use another top LB also.

 

[El Che Guevara]

Ketch, I enjoy your website.

The information and insight your service provides, is well worth the monthly dues. There's no question - OB is a great value.

With that said, there seems to be something strange about Anwar's reporting; even more peculiar is the manner in which you continuously defend his work.

First, let us set aside the fact that his basic writing skills are lacking. I'm fairly certain no one would argue that point. There are times, reading his pieces are downright painful. Please, hire an editor, if only for his work.

Still, what I believe rubs some the wrong way, is his apparent constant need to stir the pot; some might call this a desire for drama. While I understand - "stirring the pot," at times is part of the job, he seems to enjoy it more than any other OB reporter. Simply put - drama follows him.

Personally, I've never questioned his sources or your knowledge of who his sources are. What I question is the manner in which he relays the information those sources provide. As a reporter in my own right, I know that a major part of the job is discernment. Anwar just seems to struggle in this area.

It's one thing thing to run with insider info all the way to print; it's another to print inaccurate information. Case in point - "It's Swoopes and it's not even close." Not only was that wrong, it was grossly wrong and it brought a "look at me" type of dynamic to the reporting; which as you know - is the exact opposite of what reporting is supposed to be.

I don't doubt Anwar was informed Swoopes was well ahead of Shane. The problem is - he had the benefit of already seeing what Swoopes was capable of for quite some time. Anwar should have the ability to take that information, sit down at his typewriter and "discern" whether or not it's worthy of passing along, and how to convey that message to his readers. Especially given the fact that it certainly wasn't "even close" - in the exact opposite direction. That's discernment. If he'd only reported "Swoopes Takes the Lead" that would still be newsworthy, with less of a "look at me" feel to it.

Unfortunately, Anwar hasn't seem to grow from that journalistic mistake and he continues to relay information in similar fashion. You can't fault OB readers who remain wary of his reports.

I still enjoy his work from time to time. He's not my favorite writer on this site, and he desperately needs an editor. Still, he's good for the occasional entertaining read.

My overall point is - for you to label him as a "world class reporter" is embarrassing for you, and insulting to your readers. The reasons are too many to list, though I touched on a few above; but I have to tell you - I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

"World class reporter?" Really?

Decent reporter? Maybe. Good hire for you? I suppose so.

But your claim is downright silly.

I'll wrap this up by providing two facts:

1. Anwar is not a world class reporter.
2. If he were, he would not be working at OB.

As I stated above - I do enjoy this site. I find it highly entertaining and it's a good value.

But "world class..." come on.

This

 

[buldg99nc1]

Ronnie Perkins odds?

 

[golfpr3145]

Good stuff Ketch. I guess Foreman fits in the mold of the not too smart kids that have to learn the hard way. That is if he learned anything.

 

[Seftees]

KETCH - No GOT?????

 

[RLong68]

Probably can go even further back with the DB class in terms of "best since."

 

[Bill Blazejowski]

So...back to the topic at hand. Will Malik, in your opinion, have said break out year or will he just cruise to the NFL?

I like how he said he was going to end it with 2 facts, yet they were opinions! And he calls himself a reporter, for fake news maybe!

 

[hornsup21]

*escapegoat

Oh Lowered.

 

[dan 8817]

You wrote a thousand words and all you said was Anwar is a bad journalist. Efficient writing is not a strength of yours apparently.

I think Anwar's career in journalism here and other places speaks for itself, and he doesn't need me nor anyone else defending him.

I enjoy reading his column, his reporting and appreciate that he's a good sport about some of the ribbing he takes from others while still maintaining a sense of humor about the whole thing.

Your inefficient rant was way over the top in its criticism.

Some of y'all take this shit way too seriously. This is a college football forum (predominantly). We aren't solving the world's problems here. It's a rowdy, fun bar to hang out and talk some football, movies, other sporting news, world news and even converse about bro jobs.

It's all part of the fun.

This

 

[Ketchum]

"Dominating?" Yeah, I'm the dramatic one.

Look at my post history - I typically don't engage in these types of debates, which you'd agree are somewhat regular occurrences on this site. However, it's my opinion that your claim of Anwar to be "world class" is simply untrue. Are we each not entitled to our own opinions? You stated yours, and I stated mine.

Ironically enough - your confrontational overreaction to my comments only furthers my point.

As far as supporting facts - I clearly noted what I consider to be the biggest supporting fact there is - Anwar's "It's Swoopes and it's not even close" post. If you're looking for more, I'd have to say (chuckling) no thank you. I wouldn't even pretend to care enough about this to - what? - scroll back through the archives and cite examples? Again, that's funny.

What I do know, and therefore what I can speak to - is more often than not, when I read Anwar's work, it seems to be more about him and less about the content. That's just my opinion. So, if you're asking me not to have one, or equally bad - not to voice it, then you be better.

Maybe you can tell us who you are and what you do as a reporter that would give you the juice to challenge someone in such an insulting way as it relates to their skills in this craft?

Anwar has broken multiple stories, many of them that have been picked up nationally since he's been here. His peers in this market view him incredibly well.

You?

You're leaning on one example of a shortcoming and you don't even have all of the details and facts correct.

You made quite a few charges and your only example is the Swoopes report?

That's just not good enough, especially when you consider how insulting your remarks were.

 

[o5prey]

Ketch,

You can go round and round on this I talked to Charlie Strong Deal - but it doesn't make it true, it's not a fact.

(Yes it doesn't make it false either I acknowledge)

Lets examine 2 scenarios so quickly - because I just can't find the motivation to type them out as fully as I have before, I don't know that you'll even listen.

Scenario #1

Swoopes was way ahead of Buechelle just as described.......and then he caught up and things played out how you describe them....Strong talked to you and couldn't believe the flack Anwar was catching.

Scenario #2

Swoopes was not way ahead - either he wasn't ahead at all / or he was ahead but they were wanting to get him to start limiting his turnovers / improve / misdirection for Notre Dame / keep Swoopes engaged on the team - any number of detailed reasons that lots of people have described.

Strong and staff fed info to Anwar / and then onto other for the aforementioned reasons...

Strong then talked to you and couldn't believe the flack Anwar was catching....



-- Reasoning in assigning %'s above

You feel Strong wasn't smart enough to use Scenario 2 would lead to 1 getting a higher %? but you feel 100% certain it seems without any doubt of wiggle room - (which I don't believe the call explains)

Reasons why many of your subscribers feel something along the lines of Scenario 2 is reasonable - the fact that Buechelle started the Notre Dame Game / and that Swoopes wasn't even trusted to get passing plays called out of his package even at the beginning of the season, like literally NO passes, that just doesn't jive with someone who was way ahead in the QB competition.

Why I feel like we can't have a reasonable discussion about the above - and what limits you credibility in this discussion is that you only think Scenario 1 is even possible in your mind.

If I was going to assign percentages? I would call it 25% #1 and 75% #2..... If you were able to better discuss the it reasonably then I would give #1 more weight because I would trust your judgement more in this case

 

[Ketchum]

Probably can go even further back with the DB class in terms of "best since."

Hmmm....I need to think about that one.

 

[ball911]

Ketch, I enjoy your website.

The information and insight your service provides, is well worth the monthly dues. There's no question - OB is a great value.

With that said, there seems to be something strange about Anwar's reporting; even more peculiar is the manner in which you continuously defend his work.

First, let us set aside the fact that his basic writing skills are lacking. I'm fairly certain no one would argue that point. There are times, reading his pieces are downright painful. Please, hire an editor, if only for his work.

Still, what I believe rubs some the wrong way, is his apparent constant need to stir the pot; some might call this a desire for drama. While I understand - "stirring the pot," at times is part of the job, he seems to enjoy it more than any other OB reporter. Simply put - drama follows him.

Personally, I've never questioned his sources or your knowledge of who his sources are. What I question is the manner in which he relays the information those sources provide. As a reporter in my own right, I know that a major part of the job is discernment. Anwar just seems to struggle in this area.

It's one thing thing to run with insider info all the way to print; it's another to print inaccurate information. Case in point - "It's Swoopes and it's not even close." Not only was that wrong, it was grossly wrong and it brought a "look at me" type of dynamic to the reporting; which as you know - is the exact opposite of what reporting is supposed to be.

I don't doubt Anwar was informed Swoopes was well ahead of Shane. The problem is - he had the benefit of already seeing what Swoopes was capable of for quite some time. Anwar should have the ability to take that information, sit down at his typewriter and "discern" whether or not it's worthy of passing along, and how to convey that message to his readers. Especially given the fact that it certainly wasn't "even close" - in the exact opposite direction. That's discernment. If he'd only reported "Swoopes Takes the Lead" that would still be newsworthy, with less of a "look at me" feel to it.

Unfortunately, Anwar hasn't seem to grow from that journalistic mistake and he continues to relay information in similar fashion. You can't fault OB readers who remain wary of his reports.

I still enjoy his work from time to time. He's not my favorite writer on this site, and he desperately needs an editor. Still, he's good for the occasional entertaining read.

My overall point is - for you to label him as a "world class reporter" is embarrassing for you, and insulting to your readers. The reasons are too many to list, though I touched on a few above; but I have to tell you - I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

"World class reporter?" Really?

Decent reporter? Maybe. Good hire for you? I suppose so.

But your claim is downright silly.

I'll wrap this up by providing two facts:

1. Anwar is not a world class reporter.
2. If he were, he would not be working at OB.

As I stated above - I do enjoy this site. I find it highly entertaining and it's a good value.

But "world class..." come on.

Everyone is entitled to his opinion. My opinion is that this seems detached from reality.

 

[Ketchum]

Ketch,

You can go round and round on this I talked to Charlie Strong Deal - but it doesn't make it true, it's not a fact.

(Yes it doesn't make it false either I acknowledge)

Lets examine 2 scenarios so quickly - because I just can't find the motivation to type them out as fully as I have before, I don't know that you'll even listen.

Scenario #1

Swoopes was way ahead of Buechelle just as described.......and then he caught up and things played out how you describe them....Strong talked to you and couldn't believe the flack Anwar was catching.

Scenario #2

Swoopes was not way ahead - either he wasn't ahead at all / or he was ahead but they were wanting to get him to start limiting his turnovers / improve / misdirection for Notre Dame / keep Swoopes engaged on the team - any number of detailed reasons that lots of people have described.

Strong and staff fed info to Anwar / and then onto other for the aforementioned reasons...

Strong then talked to you and couldn't believe the flack Anwar was catching....



-- Reasoning in assigning %'s above

You feel Strong wasn't smart enough to use Scenario 2 would lead to 1 getting a higher %? but you feel 100% certain it seems without any doubt of wiggle room - (which I don't believe the call explains)

Reasons why many of your subscribers feel something along the lines of Scenario 2 is reasonable - the fact that Buechelle started the Notre Dame Game / and that Swoopes wasn't even trusted to get passing plays called out of his package even at the beginning of the season, like literally NO passes, that just doesn't jive with someone who was way ahead in the QB competition.

Why I feel like we can't have a reasonable discussion about the above - and what limits you credibility in this discussion is that you only think Scenario 1 is even possible in your mind.

If I was going to assign percentages? I would call it 25% #1 and 75% #2..... If you were able to better discuss the it reasonably then I would give #1 more weight because I would trust your judgement more in this case

I don't care what you think as it relates to this. No offense.

When it comes to specifics and details of what happened, who was involved and how it all went down, my knowledge is superior.

Thus far, that truth doesn't matter.

On top of that, you keep forgetting that no one on staff supported the idea... at all. We reported what our sources told us. We pushed our sources strongly on the matter. Others followed with the same reporting (always forgotten).

I personally confirmed in a 30-minute phone call with the head coach... as level one as it gets.

But, yes, feel free to tell me how you handicap it all.

 

[hornsup21]

Ketch, I enjoy your website.

The information and insight your service provides, is well worth the monthly dues. There's no question - OB is a great value.

With that said, there seems to be something strange about Anwar's reporting; even more peculiar is the manner in which you continuously defend his work.

First, let us set aside the fact that his basic writing skills are lacking. I'm fairly certain no one would argue that point. There are times, reading his pieces are downright painful. Please, hire an editor, if only for his work.

Still, what I believe rubs some the wrong way, is his apparent constant need to stir the pot; some might call this a desire for drama. While I understand - "stirring the pot," at times is part of the job, he seems to enjoy it more than any other OB reporter. Simply put - drama follows him.

Personally, I've never questioned his sources or your knowledge of who his sources are. What I question is the manner in which he relays the information those sources provide. As a reporter in my own right, I know that a major part of the job is discernment. Anwar just seems to struggle in this area.

It's one thing thing to run with insider info all the way to print; it's another to print inaccurate information. Case in point - "It's Swoopes and it's not even close." Not only was that wrong, it was grossly wrong and it brought a "look at me" type of dynamic to the reporting; which as you know - is the exact opposite of what reporting is supposed to be.

I don't doubt Anwar was informed Swoopes was well ahead of Shane. The problem is - he had the benefit of already seeing what Swoopes was capable of for quite some time. Anwar should have the ability to take that information, sit down at his typewriter and "discern" whether or not it's worthy of passing along, and how to convey that message to his readers. Especially given the fact that it certainly wasn't "even close" - in the exact opposite direction. That's discernment. If he'd only reported "Swoopes Takes the Lead" that would still be newsworthy, with less of a "look at me" feel to it.

Unfortunately, Anwar hasn't seem to grow from that journalistic mistake and he continues to relay information in similar fashion. You can't fault OB readers who remain wary of his reports.

I still enjoy his work from time to time. He's not my favorite writer on this site, and he desperately needs an editor. Still, he's good for the occasional entertaining read.

My overall point is - for you to label him as a "world class reporter" is embarrassing for you, and insulting to your readers. The reasons are too many to list, though I touched on a few above; but I have to tell you - I literally laughed out loud when I read that.

"World class reporter?" Really?

Decent reporter? Maybe. Good hire for you? I suppose so.

But your claim is downright silly.

I'll wrap this up by providing two facts:

1. Anwar is not a world class reporter.
2. If he were, he would not be working at OB.

As I stated above - I do enjoy this site. I find it highly entertaining and it's a good value.

But "world class..." come on.

I agree that the WORLD CLASS reporter comment was over the top. He worked Tampa and Detroit, but I'm used to the hyperbole here, so it didn't phase me.

I don't like Anwar's style when doing his OP ED type pieces( just my personal taste) and except for the 1st few pulpits and the ones that later blew up like Swoopes and Malik, I seldom read them.

However, Anwar's crafted content when reporting news, and in the handful of Pulpits I have read, is usually better composed than anyone else's on here.

The insults were really uncalled for..

Finally, the biggest irony to me was you saying he desperately needed an editor because he actually won 2 or 3 AP Sports Editor awards IIRC. If anything he needs a headline writer

As message boards go, I'll take him and the gang over anybody else.

 

[FrozenHorn]

For those of us who weren't on OB all week, what was Anwar's story this past week that's being discussed ITT? Link, por favor?

 

[o5prey]

I don't care what you think as it relates to this. No offense.

When it comes to specifics and details of what happened, who was involved and how it all went down, my knowledge is superior.

Thus far, that truth doesn't matter.

On top of that, you keep forgetting that no one on staff supported the idea... at all. We reported what our sources told us. We pushed our sources strongly on the matter. Others followed with the same reporting (always forgotten).

I personally confirmed in a 30-minute phone call with the head coach... as level one as it gets.

But, yes, feel free to tell me how you handicap it all.

I completely agree that others reported the same - not sure how that affects the %'s of the scenarios.

If you were discussing both scenarios as possibilities - and had from day 1? Then my %'s would probably be flipped - but you haven't, nor have I ever seen any discussion of the supposed details that you know that would cause me to think that your scenario is the only one I should be believing in hindsight.

What do you keep forgetting?

That Buechelle started Notre Dame....and it wasn't even a rotation.....if it had been where Swoopes had been ahead by such a large margin...truly....then wouldn't he have gotten a few series? I mean really?
That Swoopes wasn't trusted to even pass the ball.....

Those pieces of information are very important in handicapping the scenarios.

 

[Ketchum]

I completely agree that others reported the same - not sure how that affects the %'s of the scenarios.

If you were discussing both scenarios as possibilities - and had from day 1? Then my %'s would probably be flipped - but you haven't, nor have I ever seen any discussion of the supposed details that you know that would cause me to think that your scenario is the only one I should be believing in hindsight.

What do you keep forgetting?

That Buechelle started Notre Dame....and it wasn't even a rotation.....if it had been where Swoopes had been ahead by such a large margin...truly....then wouldn't he have gotten a few series? I mean really?
That Swoopes wasn't trusted to even pass the ball.....

Those pieces of information are very important in handicapping the scenarios.

I got it. You know better and more.

 

[Ketchum]

For those of us who weren't on OB all week, what was Anwar's story this past week that's being discussed ITT? Link, por favor?

Anwar wrote a story about Jefferson last Sunday that described the "disconnect" between Jefferson and the staff.

Literally, hours after the story debuted, Jefferson and a coach in the staff were involved in a situation that led to Jefferson calling that coach out on social media.

Long story short, Jefferson and Herman met last Thursday, about a day before Herman was scheduled to meet with his parents, and they worked out what needed to be worked out.

Through it all, some either believed Anwar was making things up, creating click bait or just didn't have a basis for writing what was written.

Just another week in the off-season for Orangebloods.

 

[o5prey]

I got it. You know better and more.

I got it - you think we're morons for considering any other possibility - but haven't given us any insight into what you know exactly that should make us think that your scenario is the correct one....even though it's been discussed a hundred times on here.

 

[Ketchum]

I got it - you think we're morons for considering any other possibility - but haven't given us any insight into what you know exactly that should make us think that your scenario is the correct one....even though it's been discussed a hundred times on here.

That just isn't true.

 

[RLong68]

For those of us who weren't on OB all week, what was Anwar's story this past week that's being discussed ITT? Link, por favor?

Don't have the link, but this is it in a nutshell.

@Anwar Richardson insightfully speculated on a "disconnect" between not just this staff but the prior staff with Malik. OBers who missed obvious signs of it went apesh*t. Subsequent reporting pretty much showed @Anwar Richardson was pretty dang spot on.

 

[marka1]

I got it - you think we're morons for considering any other possibility - but haven't given us any insight into what you know exactly that should make us think that your scenario is the correct one....even though it's been discussed a hundred times on here.

It sure looks like Anwar received information directly from head coach and Ketch confirmed the information with the head coach before it went on the website. They didn't report their sources at the time in order not to burn their sources. It's as simple as that. What more do you want?

 

[c.c.rider]

* For Oklahoma's Lincoln Riley: If you don't win more than nine games, should you still be the head coach at Oklahoma in 2018?

or how about asking him this?

* were you even alive the last time ou won a nc?

 

[Baguette]

Is there such a thing as Workaholics Anonymous?

 

[c.c.rider]

"not some medium-market fan-boy chump"

that was beautiful....simply beautiful

 

[o5prey]

That just isn't true.

What isn't true?

You've outlined your sources for the story - 100% agreed on running it as it was done. That doesn't make the statement 100% true though, not at the time it was made or even after the same sources confirm it later.

That's like saying that you interviewed Charlie Sheen twice a month apart and he said the same crazy nonsense about Tiger's Blood - and that it's the truth. Obviously that's extreme - but I'm trying to made the correlation.

If there is actual more substance to the timeline and information I'd love to hear it.

 

[UTDB78]

I've contended for awhile that the players loved Charlie the man, but there's no way they could've loved Charlie the coach, if they were being honest with themselves, because the coach did Jefferson and the other players no favors with how he and his staff collectively prepared this team to play football week in and week out. They were an incompetent team.

Bedford all but called out Jefferson last year in training camp.

Bedford not only called Malik out, but called him "Charmin" on his way out. Does not exactly instill confidence as the middle LB at Texas when your coach calls you soft .

 

[texasguy2310]

Through it all, some either believed Anwar was making things up, creating click bait or just didn't have a basis for writing what was written.

Just another week in the off-season for Orangebloods.

You know that's not entirely accurate. There was another group....A majority group, actually, that simply wanted you guys to explain the beef about which we were reading. We also didn't appreciate being addressed like children, or spoken to in an otherwise condescending manner, when we were simply asking for information. We've gone round and round about this and, if you're still talking about it like this, you missed the point entirely.

 

[texasguy2310]

Don't have the link, but this is it in a nutshell.

@Anwar Richardson insightfully speculated on a "disconnect" between not just this staff but the prior staff with Malik. OBers who missed obvious signs of it went apesh*t. Subsequent reporting pretty much showed @Anwar Richardson was pretty dang spot on.

That's what some folks did. The majority of us, however, were taking issue with things for a different reason or reasons.

 

[RLong68]

That's what some folks did. The majority of us, however, were taking issue with things for a different reason or reasons.

Whatever reason or reasons, they were silly.

 

[EG-man]

GOT is GOAT

 

[EG-man]

@Ketchum as a non Austinite thanks for number 5. I'm proud of those young men. Very nice! Also welcome "back". Enjoyed the column.

Football teams do this sort of thing all the time, but for some reason this one seemed more meaningful to me. Not sure why.