Ketch's 10 thoughts From The Weekend (Confidence is very, very high - Part II)
- Thread starter Ketchum
- Start date
You realize that Worthy made multiple drops like that over his career, don't you?
Yes, everyone drops balls--but elite of the elite players RARELY, if ever, drop passes like that in important games like that--at times like that, consistently--if they do-they make up for it--immediately. They make the catch--that's why they're remembered as elite of the elite players-as champions.
Drop rate--it appears that your hiding behind stats when a player you like doesn't get the job done--that's the problem with stats. Did you bring up drop rates with Mitchell? No, because we din't have to. He made the catches when he was suppose to. (And I don't hear many people giving a crap about drop rates when fondly looking back on a career of a memorable receiver). It's ok, it's your thing, but drop rates don't measure how good someone is in the clutch. That's what I care about.
I care about elite receivers making elite catches at the most memorable times, consistently, against elite competition, when everyone is watching--when the lights are the brightest.
He had a great year last year, but he has had the dropsies over his career at Texas--that isn't unfair to state that--drop rates and "broken hands" notwithstanding.
Ok--maybe, (that's why I've asked you questions that you don't answer from time to time)--just trying to make sure I understand.I'm not sure matter-of-fact means what you think it means.
But, it seems like highlight videos are pretty matter of fact. Not a lot of gray area in that.
But a coach, (and Worthy fan saying "HE HAD A BROKEN ADD, HE HAD A BROKEN HAND) briefly stating after the fact (and somewhat shrouded in secrecy) "he had a broken hand" and just leaving it at that--never to revisit the subject--controversial as it is--is gray.
But how good would movies be if there was no music available to be in the movie? Movies would be just straight up dialog and environmental sounds.
Belaboring ???
dude ….. you are rebelaboring a belabored point. Again.
The “A” must stand for aggie. ie. wrong board.
"1/3 of his career drops happened in the 1/10th of his career where he had a broken hand. " That's not true.
And "statistical anomolies" like you just mentioned MATTER in big games, at crunch time. If you screw up--statistical anomaly or not, you're remembered for it--no amount of stats erase that.
I've literally watched videos of a healthy Worthy--dropping balls. Like the I sent earlier.
This was a thing for Worthy--we all saw it-drop rate or no drop rate.
Not hard--was he a very good receiver at Texas? Yes.
Did he make good catches? Yes
Was dropping balls a pattern for Worthy? YES
Did he have critical-game changing drops that he should've caught--YES
Did he have to many for an elite receiver? YES
Do players play with injuries? YES Players have to play through injuries--and excuses don't matter--if you're in the game--no excuse.
Was this injury an excuse for Worthy--NO
Do players overcome injuries? Yes, mainly the great ones--particularly passes that are right in one's hands
Did Sark play him? Yes
Did he play him for a reason? Yes, he didn't consider him hurt enough. If his hand REALLY had an impact, Sark wouldn't have played him. Too much potential for further serious injury, and it's not looking out for your player.
Again, this is not rocket science.
And "statistical anomolies" like you just mentioned MATTER in big games, at crunch time. If you screw up--statistical anomaly or not, you're remembered for it--no amount of stats erase that.
I've literally watched videos of a healthy Worthy--dropping balls. Like the I sent earlier.
This was a thing for Worthy--we all saw it-drop rate or no drop rate.
Not hard--was he a very good receiver at Texas? Yes.
Did he make good catches? Yes
Was dropping balls a pattern for Worthy? YES
Did he have critical-game changing drops that he should've caught--YES
Did he have to many for an elite receiver? YES
Do players play with injuries? YES Players have to play through injuries--and excuses don't matter--if you're in the game--no excuse.
Was this injury an excuse for Worthy--NO
Do players overcome injuries? Yes, mainly the great ones--particularly passes that are right in one's hands
Did Sark play him? Yes
Did he play him for a reason? Yes, he didn't consider him hurt enough. If his hand REALLY had an impact, Sark wouldn't have played him. Too much potential for further serious injury, and it's not looking out for your player.
Again, this is not rocket science.
Pretty soon he is going to be arguing with himself regarding the Germans bombing Pearl Harbor.
Sir. It doesn’t matter. You don’t want to excuse the drops, some of us are more understanding. That’s it.
Sark didn't say anything until the season was over--down the stretch nothing was said. How could I have shown lack of grace?
I've gone on and on about him with complements. Not sure how that is a lack of grace?
And neither is being skeptical about the 11th hour hand excuse.
And neither is playfully giving you a little jazz about your Worthy excuse making.
It's all a part of debate--all in fun as far as I'm concerned at least.
Lack of grace--have you read the stuff on your message boards?? The way people talk to each other--this very topic, no less and you say I'm showing a lack of grace??
Just sayin'
😁Spirited aurguing, yes, but lack of grace?
Per PFF he had 15 career drops in 39 games.
5 of them happened in 4 games.
5/15 is 1/3
4/39 is 10.25% or roughly 1/10
So how is what you quoted above not true? That I said 1/10 instead of 10.25%? C'mon now.
So facts don't matter when they don't fit your agenda. This is like debating with texags back in the day.
Ok, I will play along for fun. This concept of "big games, at crunch time" as you call it. How would you define it objectively? Once you define it, what was the percentage of opportunities that Worthy had where he made the catch vs where he had a drop? I think if you actually look at the data you would be quite surprised. It's typical for the mind to only remember part of the story. That's the problem with relying on something experiential as opposed to objective facts.
See the thing about stats is that it erases emotion from the equation. Sure he dropped balls when healthy. 10 over 35 games and around 205 catchable attempts. We all saw them. It was right about what you would expect, or slightly better, of any elite college receiver.
Pattern? A lower percentage pattern than most NCAA receivers, but I guess technically a pattern.
This is the oddest conclusion yet. You are either too blinded by emotion or don't pay attention to many elite receivers in college football.
Wow, the lengths you are going to here are insane.
The reality is that even with a broken hand which made it tougher to catch the ball, Worthy was by far the best option to throw passes towards. He never once used the injury as an excuse, and did everything he could to make plays.
The assumptions that you make about Sark and risk of further injury require an incredible leap from fact to fiction. I am genuinely hoping that your pride is the only reason you are still clinging onto this nonsense.
Clearly.
Do we consider race car divers for the list?
What about AJ Foyt?
4 time Indy 500 winner, won Daytona and has more American titles than anyone in history.
Bonus points for starting a brawl in victory lane at the first ever race at Texas Motor Speedway.
What about AJ Foyt?
4 time Indy 500 winner, won Daytona and has more American titles than anyone in history.
Bonus points for starting a brawl in victory lane at the first ever race at Texas Motor Speedway.
Last edited:
Well just to complete my point, you can remove Johnson and Clemens from your list. And if the truth was fully known, you’d probably have to remove a few more.
Johnson hands back gold medal 'tainted by drugs' | Drugs in sport | The Guardian
<p>Michael Johnson has returned his relay medal after one of his team-mates admitted using banned substances</p>
Former Feds Say Barry Bonds And Roger Clemens Steroid-Use Evidence Indisputable
The legacies of the home run king, Bonds, and the 354-game winning pitcher, Clemens, are complicated by their links to doping.
www.forbes.com
Michael Carter
HS shot putt over 81 feet, still record by over 4 feet, 45 years later
3 time Super Bowl champion
Olympian
HS shot putt over 81 feet, still record by over 4 feet, 45 years later
3 time Super Bowl champion
Olympian
Texags?? Good Lord. Who's being emotional now. You don't like the fact that I'm not buying the injury thing hook-line and sinker--and that's fine, but you have no idea about was going on with his hand--you're guessing, and then reverting back to PPF stats (which many dispute) I could've regurgitated, and had nothing to do with the original post, that I was replying to, and I'm insane and emotional?
Let's try this, since that's the frame of mind you're in (and you butted into a conversation that was going on between others. who weren't talking to you), I want you to think about something here.
In a quiet moment, go back and review those drops, including the crucial TD drop against Alabama at home (and the even the following year). Better yet, go back and look at the other big-time gaffs he made, including, okie state, and kansas state, for starters--and even the bowl game--Worthy looked the same in this game that he did in all the other ones--he didn't look like he had a broken hand at all, he looked like the same Worthy we had seen before in big moments.
And then as you're watching, ask yourself what it would've meant for the team and its confidence, for Ewers, who was a young quarterback figuring stuff out and needing some confidence, had Worthy caught just some of those passes. Just ONEor even TWO!
We most likely would've beaten Alabama (and probably ok state) who was on the ropes--and wouldn't have struggled to 8-5. Those were crucial games that really could've changed the entire trajectory of this team. Those weren't minor drops.
Yes, it was a pattern with Worthy, and anyone who objectively, objectively, mind you, can see that. The evidence is right there for all to see, the PPF stats don't change that.
And had those drops in the Alamo game happened to a receiver like Adenai Mitchell, for example, or Jordan Whittington, or Sanders, we wouldn't be having this debate. I wouldn't be saying this--those horrible, memorable drops didn't happen to them like it did for Worthy. So I would give them the benefit of the doubt, based on their history.
BUT, since it happened to Worthy, I am much less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, and blame it on a broken hand.
Unfortunately, Worthy's reputation preceded him. That's not my fault, or anyone else who may have questions. That's on Worthy.
So that means, you'll stop bringing up the broken hand every time you get the chance to prop up Worthy? Thank goodness!!
You are. It's coming through in every one of your posts. And yes, when someone decides to ignore the facts because they don't fit their narrative, that reminds me of arguing with aggies, because facts are never in their favor either.
No I'm not guessing.
Feel free to being up other data from a third party statistics service... it is somewhat subjective whether a pass counts as catchable or not... but all of the major ones I subscribe to show similar numbers to PFF.
So basically, you are unable to define objective criteria for "big games, in clutch time" and see how many instances did Worthy catch or drop passes in those situations. You instead refer to anecdotal examples. I can easily counter those with anecdotal examples where he made the catch in "big games, in clutch time" (if you could define it). But the problem with using anecdotal evidence is that it doesn't tell the whole story. The only way to see the whole story, objectively, is to look at all of the data.
Were you grinding your teeth as you typed this? Goodness. The evidence is right there, just as you say. It just doesn't support your assertions.
So your conclusion is influenced by your own confirmation bias. You admit this and then wonder why I said you aren't being rational about this?
And since you called me out on this earlier, I would still like to know how you think that this statement isn't true...
It means I'm done with you and this subject.
Your position on this is one of the worst positions anyone on the site has ever had related to Texas football.
I mean that in the nicest way possible.
The men have no excuse except that the team they put on the court had no player anywhere near being one of the most talented male basketball players in the U.S. They were less talented and small compared to all their opponents.
The most talented American basketball players choose to play the five man version of the game and the 3×3 version is such a micro-niche sport in America I bet most Americans don't even know it exists.
Apparently it is a less-niche version of the game in several European countries - who also have guys who have basketball skills.
I hear you and won't bring it up, but remember, I didn't bring it up in the first place-you did. I just pushed back. You have your opinion, please allow me to have mine.It means I'm done with you and this subject.
Your position on this is one of the worst positions anyone on the site has ever had related to Texas football.
I mean that in the nicest way possible.
I don't believe in making excuses for players who make bad plays-that's not a horrible take--might be uncomfortable for some, but not horrible.
Also, can't imagine that holding a player accountable, and not instantly believing everything a coach says is the worst position ever in Texas football--and it isn't.
@pied
More on Biles:
www.espn.com
Biles leaves Paris with 11 Olympic medals, four of them earned at these Games. For some, she needed these medals, because they are the means by which they will weigh her legacy. Others will base their measure of her greatness on immeasurables such as the impact she will leave on her sport, inside the competition arena and beyond. Everyone has their own calculation for quantifying the greatest of all time.
But after these Olympics, this year, this shortened quadrennium, there is no debate. No matter the metric, Biles is the greatest gymnast of all time.
EVEN BEFORE THE delayed Tokyo Olympics, many considered Biles to be the best gymnast in history. But statistically, she still had challengers. She had yet to surpass two-time Olympian Shannon Miller's medal count and, much like tennis great Serena Williams, found herself butting up against the legacies of gymnasts from an era that in many ways is incomparable to today.
By winning an eighth Olympic medal here in Paris, Biles became the most decorated American gymnast of all time. That she earned No. 8 in the team competition was especially gratifying for Biles and her teammates. Then she won a ninth, then a 10th and 11th, seven of them gold. No modern gymnast comes close. Only Larisa Latynina of the Soviet Union, who competed in three Games from 1956 to 1964, has more Olympic medals (18). Biles' 11th medal ties her with Czech gymnast Vera Caslavska, who retired in 1968.
Biles has also earned more national titles and more world championship medals than any man or woman in history, and has a combined total of 41 world and Olympic medals.
More on Biles:
The never-to-be-replicated legacy of Simone Biles
After the Paris Olympics, Simone Biles has settled any debate: No matter the metric, she is the greatest gymnast of all time.
Biles leaves Paris with 11 Olympic medals, four of them earned at these Games. For some, she needed these medals, because they are the means by which they will weigh her legacy. Others will base their measure of her greatness on immeasurables such as the impact she will leave on her sport, inside the competition arena and beyond. Everyone has their own calculation for quantifying the greatest of all time.
But after these Olympics, this year, this shortened quadrennium, there is no debate. No matter the metric, Biles is the greatest gymnast of all time.
EVEN BEFORE THE delayed Tokyo Olympics, many considered Biles to be the best gymnast in history. But statistically, she still had challengers. She had yet to surpass two-time Olympian Shannon Miller's medal count and, much like tennis great Serena Williams, found herself butting up against the legacies of gymnasts from an era that in many ways is incomparable to today.
By winning an eighth Olympic medal here in Paris, Biles became the most decorated American gymnast of all time. That she earned No. 8 in the team competition was especially gratifying for Biles and her teammates. Then she won a ninth, then a 10th and 11th, seven of them gold. No modern gymnast comes close. Only Larisa Latynina of the Soviet Union, who competed in three Games from 1956 to 1964, has more Olympic medals (18). Biles' 11th medal ties her with Czech gymnast Vera Caslavska, who retired in 1968.
Biles has also earned more national titles and more world championship medals than any man or woman in history, and has a combined total of 41 world and Olympic medals.
Thanks and good read. Glad I went down this rabbit hole today. Learned a few things. Had never heard of Larisa Latynina before today. Before this I had joist assumed Biles had the most Olympic golds and medals. Clearly a lot goes into trying to determine and compare careers.
Appreciate the discussion and this article.
Appreciate the discussion and this article.
There comes a time when an exchange (particularly one that goes back a ways in time) hits diminishing returns, and we've hit that time--not to mention boring the audience and me angering Ketch, or you or anyone else--which is not my intention. I've made my point very clear--not complicated.
I'll be happy to discuss with you further on a separate chat--If you REALLY want to discuss without getting into a pissing contest. Worthy is controversial, an interesting case and not everyone agrees, as we've seen. Come to think of it-I'm not always sure that everyone on this site agrees on much of anything. I think they do, but just want to give each other sh!t.
But to summarize, just because someone writes a lot doesn't make them emotional. I could be wrong here, but you've seemed a touchy about this Worthy subject--certainly enough to butt into my conversation that I'm having with someone else.
But just to put a bow on this intellectually stimulating topic.
Your stats are not what I object to--what I am objecting to is rationalizing and excusing away his costly drops because a coach with a vested interest, says he had a broken hand, particularly the way it was presented--very little information was given--that's not convincing to me. I'm sorry, you don't like that, neither does Ketch, that's too bad--I am skeptical-for what I think is good reason, particularly with Worthy, who is known for dropped passes.
I'm not saying I have all the answers on this, but you don't either. Unless you're Worthy's doctor, you are guessing--you haven't provided any medical information that would answer questions about whether or not he actually had an injury--you just parroted some else and spewed PPF stats, which is fine I guess, but useless to my point.
And, I've already given you my criteria for what constitutes champions, elite players, big moments, clutch performances etc--not going over that again, I've explained it multiple times, go back and re-read what I said. Again, we can talk off-board if you want, but anyone who knows and follows sports should know what those terms mean.
Worthy was a very good receiver here, not great, very good--and his horrible drops at horrible times happened--that's a part of the record, along with all of the good. You can't unsee that stuff.
It’s been cooking. Getting the actual commitments is just the result of the work.
